AFCI and GFCI Kitchens

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mbrooke

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No, you don't get it. It's not your place to tell me what positions I need to take or what arguments I have to make here on this Forum or anywhere else for that matter. I get to choose where I spend by energy and effort.

I am not telling you what position to take. I had a genuine question which you refused to answer.


If you want to call that "bailing-out", so be it.

I call it bailing out because you continue to dance around a simple question. In the time it took you to make this several dozen word response you could have explained how an AFCI helps mitigate risk in old BX circuits without a bonding strip. I feel this is a major concern regarding older homes and want to know if AFCIs protect against this real world hazard.

Every question and comment you have made with regard to AFCIs, I have heard at least ten times before.

From where or who? Yes I have repeated some facts/opionions because this is a common hot button conversation on Mike Holt.

You have not presented anything that is new, profound, or compelling. It's old, boring, and repetitive.

The rest of the world has been using AFCI technology to mitigate arc faults for about 40+ years with devices that have lower failure rates (electro-mechanical) yet continue to have comparable fire rates. Second I am still puzzled how 30,000 home fires were determined to all stem from arcing.

To me this is profound because the real world evidence (or lack there of) does not fit or support the claims.

Normally this would be a none issue, but considering the fact AFCIs can add thousands to a new home or some panel upgrades has many asking valid questions.

I am truly disappointed that I will not get your support for AFCI technology. But guess who's support I do have:

We are equal, and that is a good thing. I can not sell you on my views either, so at minimum we have checks and balances.



MIKE HOLT. Mr. Holt has made his position on AFCIs quite clear. In fact, in his most recent newsletter regarding GFCI and AFCI protection, Mike goes out of his way to suggest AFCIs should be installed on other circuits and other occupancy types not currently required by the code. That is a bold statement to make. http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php?action=display&letterID=1588

Here, but I can also say not so:

https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsar...I_-_Why_I_Have_a_Problem_With_It~20020801.htm

In any case its trivial, this is a controversial hot button subject so I would imagine Mike Holt would not take an official position, but hey I am probably wrong here.


DAVID CLEMENTS - IAEI CEO. You happen to read Mr. Clements "Point in Time" article in the most recent IAEI News Magazine (Sept/Oct 2015)? Mr. Clements makes it very clear that he and the IAEI fully support AFCI technology and continued adoption and enforcement of the technology.

JEFF SARGENT - NFPA. Here are few videos from a recent hearing in NC on the adoption of the 2014 NEC where Mr. Sargent clearly indicates his the and NFPA's support for AFCI technology:

http://www.wral.com/nc-regulators-pit-cost-versus-safety-in-codes-for-circuit-breakers/14901909/
http://mms.tveyes.com/Transcript.as...:07:29+AM&Term=electrical+fires&PlayClip=TRUE

I am sure they support it. You will find many who say the same for similar reasons.



Bottom line, I and the other AFCI supporters are in pretty good company. I want no part of your delusional conspiracy theories.

Science is not a delusional conspiracy. I have no proof of who or why they came about so you are correct this is nothing more then pure speculation. However I do have equations, theory and evidence that says otherwise in regards to fire mitigation.

The real delusion here in my opinion is discarding hard science for unsubstantiated claims made by superiors. This is the only thing with continuity I have witnessed thus far.
 
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mbrooke

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Technician
Likewise, us AFCI detractors have some pretty good company as well.

I am truly disappointed to hear that Mike Holt has been deluded by the AFCI scam. I would expect someone of his stature to be able to see through the lies and misinformation, but apparently not. Bottom line for me, the more you and "industry experts" dig in on this issue, the less I trust you, and the less I want to use and endorse your products.

I dont think he has been deluded.

https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsar...I_-_Why_I_Have_a_Problem_With_It~20020801.htm

But you have to realize Mike Holt may not want to get in the center of all this, especially when he exists through the products we purchase from him which are based in what the NFPA says and does.
 

GoldDigger

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MH did not shy away from taking a new and radical position on flexible cords versus power cords.
But in that case there was no manufacturer interest on either side.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Romex Jockey,
Are you still dealing with the AFCI and furnace thing?
I am assuming the insurance company is the one wanting proof AFCI protection on a furnace circuit is necessary. The gall of them if that is the case. It would prove all they want is someone to pay the bill right or wrong.

To the insurance industry:
"""""Look insurance companies you probably lobbied for these stinkin devices and what difference does it make they are mandated in a new home!!!!!! """

Yeah Sierra

As an EC it becomes more than product validation , it becomes a liability in callbacks ,confrontation ,litigation.....none of which the manufacturers will 'eat' .....


~RJ~
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Bottom line, I and the other AFCI supporters are in pretty good company. I want no part of your delusional conspiracy theories.


Conspiracies exist only due to lack of clarity and transparency

As such, it would behoove the advocates of this (et all) technology to take the time to do so

At the end of the day, when all is laid out and explained , those in the 'con' position would be forced to agree ,if not abandon it for a 'pro' one

I would suggest the 'pro contingent' rise to this challenge vs the hubris it has established via mandates.

~RJ~
 

Dennis Alwon

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explained how an AFCI helps mitigate risk in old BX circuits without a bonding strip. I feel this is a major concern regarding older homes and want to know if AFCIs protect against this real world hazard.

In some cases the old bx cable will heat up and glow rather than trip a breaker when a ground fault is present. I am no expert on afci but if there is a continuous arc or arcing that is causing this condition I suspect the afci would trip.
 

mbrooke

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In some cases the old bx cable will heat up and glow rather than trip a breaker when a ground fault is present. I am no expert on afci but if there is a continuous arc or arcing that is causing this condition I suspect the afci would trip.

Is the glowing itself usually restive or does it create an arc signature? Or arcing at the fault usually accompanies the glowing?
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
In the case of old BX, in my own opinion that GFCI or GFP would be much quicker to react than AFCI without GFP.

In the case of old BX heating, other than for some very odd circumstances it is a detectable ground fault well before heating or any arcing is going to happen.
 

mbrooke

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In the case of old BX, in my own opinion that GFCI or GFP would be much quicker to react than AFCI without GFP.

In the case of old BX heating, other than for some very odd circumstances it is a detectable ground fault well before heating or any arcing is going to happen.

Makes sense, I would think the same. In that case 30/50ma GFP should not be removed from AFCIs as its currently taking place by some manufactures.

Joe Engels made a CMP proposal to keep GFP in AFCIs but it was rejected. I somehow have the feeling this is why BPH keeps bailing on my question.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
In the case of old BX, in my own opinion that GFCI or GFP would be much quicker to react than AFCI without GFP.

In the case of old BX heating, other than for some very odd circumstances it is a detectable ground fault well before heating or any arcing is going to happen.

A glowing connection can exist w/o grounding out Iwire

~RJ~
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If old BX is heating up and even glowing - it is because there is fault current flowing on it. The reason they required a bonding conductor in AC cables many years ago is because the sheath alone has too much resistance to be a reliable equipment grounding conductor. Simpler GFCI technology will trip when this kind of thing happens though, and probably much faster then AFCI will respond
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
A glowing connection can exist w/o grounding out Iwire

And male Leghorn chickens weigh 4-5 pounds at adulthood but that is not what we are talking about is it?

Explain how the BX we are talking about can heat up without a ground fault.

Don't wonder off into left field, stick with the specific topic you pulled my quote from.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
A glowing connection can exist w/o grounding out Iwire

~RJ~

And male Leghorn chickens weigh 4-5 pounds at adulthood but that is not what we are talking about is it?

Explain how the BX we are talking about can heat up without a ground fault.

Don't wonder off into left field, stick with the specific topic you pulled my quote from.
Can't answer for RJ, but I have a feeling he wasn't considering the BX cable sheath would typically only carry current during a ground fault but rather that any high resistance can cause glowing connection.
 

iwire

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Location
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Can't answer for RJ, but I have a feeling he wasn't considering the BX cable sheath would typically only carry current during a ground fault but rather that any high resistance can cause glowing connection.



Which is fine, but he should not use my quote that was specifically about glowing BX cable as the the place to add that info because it was not about that.
 

mbrooke

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Technician
And male Leghorn chickens weigh 4-5 pounds at adulthood but that is not what we are talking about is it?

Explain how the BX we are talking about can heat up without a ground fault.

Don't wonder off into left field, stick with the specific topic you pulled my quote from.


Which is fine, but he should not use my quote that was specifically about glowing BX cable as the the place to add that info because it was not about that.



Go easy, Im sure it was an honest mistake misreading something in the haste of things :)
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
If old BX is heating up and even glowing - it is because there is fault current flowing on it. The reason they required a bonding conductor in AC cables many years ago is because the sheath alone has too much resistance to be a reliable equipment grounding conductor. Simpler GFCI technology will trip when this kind of thing happens though, and probably much faster then AFCI will respond


And if we are replacing a 2 wire receptacle we have to use afci and gfci.
 
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