Panelboard as raceway

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Smart $

Esteemed Member
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Ohio
I wouldn't exactly say as a raceway, but rather as an atypical enclosure with moderate regard for there being a panelboard within. :D
 

dema

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
Excuse me?

Excuse me?

312.8 states that the enclosures for switches and overcurrent devices SHALL NOT be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutter, or raceways unless adequate space is provided.

If somebody is going to use it for that, they need to do some math. I'd avoid the situation and avoid the math - and the probability that somebody is going to come back later, add a few things and destroy that math.
 

roger

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If somebody is going to use it for that, they need to do some math. I'd avoid the situation and avoid the math - and the probability that somebody is going to come back later, add a few things and destroy that math.

And that is you prerogative, but I wouldn't hesitate and I don't worry about what someone does after I'm gone. If you install a 60 amp fusible disconnect for a piece of equipment that calls for a 40 amp circuit with 40 amp fuses how do you keep somebody that comes along later from installing 60 amp fuses?

Roger
 

iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
312.8 states that the enclosures for switches and overcurrent devices SHALL NOT be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutter, or raceways unless adequate space is provided.

The math is easy and if you do the math you will find its all but impossible to overfill the enclosure.


Also, they changed the wording for the 2014 to make it clear that it is permitted not prohibited. Instead of saying 'shall not be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutter, or raceways unless' it now says...

312.8 Switch and Overcurrent Device Enclosures with
Splices, Taps, and Feed-Through Conductors
. The wiring
space of enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices
shall be permitted for conductors feeding through, spliced,
or tapping off to other enclosures, switches, or overcurrent
devices where all of the following conditions are met:

(1) The total of all conductors installed at any cross section
of the wiring space does not exceed 40 percent of the
cross-sectional area of that space.

(2) The total area of all conductors, splices, and taps installed
at any cross section of the wiring space does not
exceed 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that
space.

(3) A warning label complying with llO.21(B) is applied
to the enclosure that identifies the closest disconnecting
means for any feed-through conductors.
 

ActionDave

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Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
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312.8 states that the enclosures for switches and overcurrent devices SHALL NOT be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutter, or raceways unless adequate space is provided.

If somebody is going to use it for that, they need to do some math. I'd avoid the situation and avoid the math - and the probability that somebody is going to come back later, add a few things and destroy that math.
I don't do maths either. And I don't worry about that which I can't control.

All I do is look at a conduit with 40% fill and then look at a panel board and think to myself, there is no way I can overstuff this thing. What someone else does after I'm gone is not my business.
 

infinity

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New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
As Bob stated with the 40% and 75% fill it's not likely that you could ever exceed those amounts even if you tried.:)
 

GoldDigger

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Placerville, CA, USA
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As Bob stated with the 40% and 75% fill it's not likely that you could ever exceed those amounts even if you tried.:)

Depends on whether you interpret that as 40% of the space left after the panel/breakers/etc have been included or 40% of the original internal volume of the enclosure. Or what might actually be reasonable in some circumstances, that the conductors plus device shall not exceed 40%.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Depends on whether you interpret that as 40% of the space left after the panel/breakers/etc have been included or 40% of the original internal volume of the enclosure. Or what might actually be reasonable in some circumstances, that the conductors plus device shall not exceed 40%.
312.8 uses the term "wiring space"... so panelboard busing and breaker space are not included in the 40 and 75% determinations.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
The typical wireway space in a panel is about 2.5" x 2.5" or bigger. A 40% fill of a 2.5" x 2.5" would be 188 #12 THHNs.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
just because you run wires through it does not make it a raceway. it is only a raceway if it is a raceway.

is a gutter a racway?
Raceway. An enclosed channel of metallic or nonmetallic materials designed expressly for holding wires, cables, or busbars, with additional functions as permitted in this Code.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
A gutter most certainly is a raceway. Personally I think that a panelboard is a raceway, too, but with 312.8 it doesn't needed really need to be debated.
 

infinity

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Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
A gutter most certainly is a raceway. Personally I think that a panelboard is a raceway, too, but with 312.8 it doesn't needed really need to be debated.

I agree, is the term "used as a raceway" even in the NEC besides fixtures?
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
is a gutter a racway?
No.

A gutter (in electrical equipment parlance) is an enclosure, or sub-enclosure used to supplement wiring spaces at meter centers, distribution centers, switchgear, switchboards, and similar points of wiring systems. The enclosure has hinged or removable covers for housing and protecting electrical wires, cable, and busbars.

A lot of electricians will likely call the wiring space to either side of a typical panelboard enclosure gutters, but they technically are not unless that space has a distinguishable framework and separate cover. If you look around at panelboard images say on Google searches, you see some that truly have gutters... but you'll usually see it on large gear. Most common equipment with gutters in my experience are MCC's.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
No.

A gutter (in electrical equipment parlance) is an enclosure, or sub-enclosure used to supplement wiring spaces at meter centers, distribution centers, switchgear, switchboards, and similar points of wiring systems. The enclosure has hinged or removable covers for housing and protecting electrical wires, cable, and busbars.

A lot of electricians will likely call the wiring space to either side of a typical panelboard enclosure gutters, but they technically are not unless that space has a distinguishable framework and separate cover. If you look around at panelboard images say on Google searches, you see some that truly have gutters... but you'll usually see it on large gear. Most common equipment with gutters in my experience are MCC's.

IMO the definition of raceway in the NEC disagrees with these comments--- "expressly designed"
 
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