Anybody changing the way they wire kitchens NEC2014

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jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
I believe it is against the NEC to put the kitchen fridge on a gfci. At least, I know I've been called on it in the way past.

Are you sure you were called on it for it being on a GFCI and not called on it for being on a gfci receptacle that wasn't readily accessible because it was behind the fridge?
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
So even if it stops one house fire and saves one life, then you can't put a price on a $40 breaker vs. a human life or someone's house!
The average single family dwelling in my area has a natural gas water heater, furnace (or boiler), clothes dryer, and range. All branch circuits are either 15 or 20 Amp 120 Volt and total to around 24 circuits per dwelling. At $40 additional hardware cost, per breaker, above the cost of a plain breaker, that comes to $960.00.

Think about that. Just the uninstalled circuit breakers for the average brand new single family dwelling in my area total to well over a $1,000. And this is only the tip of the financial iceberg that the individual "human life" has to smash up against to get this "safety" that your statement implies is [only] $40.00. The entire array of AFCI breakers will have life expectancies probably equal to smoke detectors and GFCI devices, so they will have to have periodic total replacements (time and material cost). There's still the added cost of installation and maintenance (testing and record keeping). There's still the added cost of additional safety strategies required to protect personnel health and property from the operation of the AFCI based safety when the AFCI discrimination falls short of the "advertised" theoretical goal.

$40.00. :thumbsdown: Get real! Your jingo-istic phrase is worthy of a used car salesman.
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
Any proponents of AFCIs on this board? lol. I guess it boils down to values. I can't and won't put a price on life safety. They're effective mechanisms to prevent house fires. I don't like the added cost either (when it comes to anything), but it is what it is.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
We wire kitchens to the'14, many inclusive of afci/gfci breakers

Most of these are 2nd homes , which will undoubtedly loose refers full of food, and i've already been involved in an afci -related freeze up here (yes the boiler was on one, and you'll be doing more of that yourself in the '17)

The bigger pix is not enhanced OCPD technology, it's all our aged and/or low grade appliances interfacing with them

As a consumer, i'd be worried , there's a limit to mandated safety vs. functional lifestyle

As an EC , may i suggest contracting with the names of current CMP-2 & NEMA members & their contact info if possible

High time they manned up ...jmho

~RJ~
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Any proponents of AFCIs on this board? lol. I guess it boils down to values. I can't and won't put a price on life safety. They're effective mechanisms to prevent house fires. I don't like the added cost either (when it comes to anything), but it is what it is.

Ask your insurance co why we can't afci old K&T circuitry for $40 ea vs. a $20,000 rewire Doc

~RJ~
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Any proponents of AFCIs on this board? lol.

You and only about 3 or 4 others. Many that are not against the concept, but feel the current products available do not meet the concept.

I guess it boils down to values. I can't and won't put a price on life safety. They're effective mechanisms to prevent house fires. I don't like the added cost either (when it comes to anything), but it is what it is.
I think it is been mentioned that fire sprinklers are pretty effective at saving lives, of course the fire has to have already started for them to do their job, but not all of us are convinced that AFCI's will prevent some of the most common causes of "electrical fires" either, so you will still be counting on those sprinklers for those instances.

The other sure way to prevent electrical fires is to not have any electrical;)
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Here's what will change and what is already changing in regards to how things get wired:

-Permits and inspections are avoided, particularly for smaller jobs

-AFCI protection is completely omitted or simply installed and then removed after an inspection

-More wiring done by homeowners and handymen, or work deferred due to cost


Skirting the AFCI rules will become a strong motivation for contractors. So ultimately, these rules will have the opposite of their intended end which is ostensibly to increase safety (though the real motivation is profit, of course.) The CMP clearly does not have a grasp of what actually occurs in the real world.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
I guess it boils down to values. I can't and won't put a price on life safety.

How much was the tank you bought to drive to work? How much was the body armor you wear under your FR clothes? Is there Kevlar in the helmet you wear every day? Do you have a hard time with the five point harness in your rig with the HANS system interfering with your Wilson? Do you find it tiresome only driving between 1am and 5am to avoid other drivers?

The NEC is a minimum safety standard, not the prescription for bubble boy.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
How much was the tank you bought to drive to work? How much was the body armor you wear under your FR clothes? Is there Kevlar in the helmet you wear every day? Do you have a hard time with the five point harness in your rig with the HANS system interfering with your Wilson? Do you find it tiresome only driving between 1am and 5am to avoid other drivers?

The NEC is a minimum safety standard, not the prescription for bubble boy.
:thumbsup: Post of the month.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Code says we can, but I think his point is some insurance companies balk at K&T period and want it gone in order for them to continue to provide coverage.

Basically yes, although i did gain some ground in the past with them based on afci marketing insisting they mitigate every arc ,along with their statistical analysis

You see my point is, Insurance companies live and die on stats and take them rather seriously

If in fact the afci technology's improvement for life safety was statistically relevant, they'd be the first to know

~RJ~
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
no real world solution exists fellas....

no real world solution exists fellas....

Here's what will change and what is already changing in regards to how things get wired:

-Permits and inspections are avoided, particularly for smaller jobs

-AFCI protection is completely omitted or simply installed and then removed after an inspection

-More wiring done by homeowners and handymen, or work deferred due to cost


Skirting the AFCI rules will become a strong motivation for contractors. So ultimately, these rules will have the opposite of their intended end which is ostensibly to increase safety (though the real motivation is profit, of course.) The CMP clearly does not have a grasp of what actually occurs in the real world.

I'll be responding to yet another 'refer trips afci' call monday.

The woman resident is literally afraid to leave her home due to this phenomenon.

I'm going to install a replacement afci with a non committal 'wait & see' non-resolve.

It's mighty hard to bill that out btw......

I'll also be saving the afci i took out for my return trip next week.....

If anyone in my EC shoes would like to forward a complaint THIS is where NEMA would like you to do so

That & a dime might get you a cup o' joe...

~RJ~
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
mag trip is a key fire forensic

mag trip is a key fire forensic

The other sure way to prevent electrical fires is to not have any electrical;)

There is a general misunderstanding of electrical fires to begin with

If only a minority of us had a little more subject matter under our belts , threads like this may not exist.

for instance.....

My first though monday will be how big a refer motor, and how close to the xformer the service is

210(A)(3)(b) distances are not arbitrary considering the lowered mag trip of these units......said levels hail from the IEC's 50 yr forensics , which works great @ 230V, but not so great at higher magnitudes (their term for ampacity)

~RJ~
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Basically yes, although i did gain some ground in the past with them based on afci marketing insisting they mitigate every arc ,along with their statistical analysis

You see my point is, Insurance companies live and die on stats and take them rather seriously

If in fact the afci technology's improvement for life safety was statistically relevant, they'd be the first to know

~RJ~
I have never been asked to install AFCI's in an existing home for the purpose of lowering the cost of homeowner insurance, if the statistics were significant enough there would be a demand for this type of project.
 
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