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Thread: Cost of AFCI breaker vs Receptacle

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by hbiss View Post
    Hey, it took all their brain power just to come up with this cockamamie idea, now you want them to think of everything?

    -Hal
    Quote Originally Posted by hbiss View Post
    Actually this looks like a way for device manufacturers (like Leviton) to get into the panel and breaker market.

    By the way, 330.17 makes no distinction between steel and aluminum sheathed MC or AC cables. All must be protected from damage with nail plates where necessary where it is run through framing members.

    -Hal
    My thoughts even before finding out about the Levition panels, they left a loophole in there for future product development. It is after all the manufacturers that got most of the AFCI related code written as it is. Same manufacturers that in the past have had effective dates published in the NEC - to give them time to get products not yet ready for the market into the code requirements, instead of waiting for next code cycle to get the code requirements published.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  2. #22
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    Sounds like a headache. Where in the code does it require a “listed breaker and receptacle combination?” Anyone have an Article no?


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  3. #23
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    Without seeing the actual installation it's hard to say. But in general, a commercial kitchen is not a place I would run any armored cable exposed on walls, equipment or fixtures. Exposure to corrosive sanitizers and frequent cleaning and washdown would be a violation of (in the case of MC) 330.12(2)(b)

    -Hal

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSparks View Post
    Sounds like a headache. Where in the code does it require a “listed breaker and receptacle combination?” Anyone have an Article no?


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    210.12(A)(1) the general rule that is followed most of the time - requires a combination type (as in second generation type that detects both series and parallel arcing faults) to protect the entire branch circuit.

    210.12(A) (2 thru 6) includes all the situations when other options can be used, with conditions for such uses.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFletcher View Post
    If you have to use a listed breaker, one that is rated for use with a afci receptacle, and have to pull in MC or AC cable, why even bother?
    It's "or" not "and".

    2014/2017 210.12(A) says that as an alternative to using a combination type AFCI breaker [210.12(A)(1)], you can use an AFCI receptacle in the first outlet box if you also use one of the following:

    (2) A listed branch/feeder type AFCI breaker.
    (3) A "supplemental arc protection" breaker (currently non-existent as far as I know).
    (4) A breaker listed in combination with the AFCI receptacle (also current non-existent as far as I know).
    (5) Metallic boxes and a metallic wiring method (including MC cable) between the breaker and the first outlet box.

    Cheers, Wayne

  6. #26
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    So, if I wire a house completely with MC and steel boxes why would I need AFCI breakers? Seems to me they consider a house wired with NM and plastic boxes a death trap.

    -Hal

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwhitney View Post
    It's "or" not "and".

    2014/2017 210.12(A) says that as an alternative to using a combination type AFCI breaker [210.12(A)(1)], you can use an AFCI receptacle in the first outlet box if you also use one of the following:

    (2) A listed branch/feeder type AFCI breaker.
    (3) A "supplemental arc protection" breaker (currently non-existent as far as I know).
    (4) A breaker listed in combination with the AFCI receptacle (also current non-existent as far as I know).
    (5) Metallic boxes and a metallic wiring method (including MC cable) between the breaker and the first outlet box.

    Cheers, Wayne
    Yes, to use an afci receptacle, you have to use one of the aforementioned sections 2 through 5. If you are running nonmetallic cable, you have to use an old-school afci, or one of two Breakers that do not currently exist. Either way you have to use something in addition to the afci receptacle to make it code compliant. That to me is an and statement, not an or.

    That's what I was also getting out with mentioning using half a product... The afci receptacle is only half of the equation.

    Eta: I see now what you were getting at... Yes you are correct, I should have written or instead of and
    Last edited by JFletcher; 04-23-18 at 12:18 AM.
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  8. #28
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    Cost of AFCI breaker vs Receptacle

    Art 210.12(a)(5) states that if rmc, emt, mc, etc are used between ocpd and first outlet box, an outlet type afci can be used. It says nothing of a listed combination. Perhaps this only applies to rule 4 when NM is used?


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwhitney View Post
    It's "or" not "and".

    2014/2017 210.12(A) says that as an alternative to using a combination type AFCI breaker [210.12(A)(1)], you can use an AFCI receptacle in the first outlet box if you also use one of the following:

    (2) A listed branch/feeder type AFCI breaker.
    (3) A "supplemental arc protection" breaker (currently non-existent as far as I know).
    (4) A breaker listed in combination with the AFCI receptacle (also current non-existent as far as I know).
    (5) Metallic boxes and a metallic wiring method (including MC cable) between the breaker and the first outlet box.

    Cheers, Wayne
    Never understood the thinking behind #3 and #4.....Even if those products existed, what would be the point in using them over just a standard AFCI breaker? Only thing I can think of is if it is cheaper, but I dont see how that could be.
    Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

    "You can't generalize"

  10. #30
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    Face-it...AFCI is here to stay. 2020 proposals add AFCI to all other areas in a dwelling. If we all just bid the job with breakers...then there won't be disparity in the field. Then, we all do-it equally, like plumbers, we can all smile on the way to the bank.

    Then the difference between one electrician to the next will be performance, reliability and neatness...not pricing.

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