Anybody changing the way they wire kitchens NEC2014

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DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
How much was the tank you bought to drive to work? How much was the body armor you wear under your FR clothes? Is there Kevlar in the helmet you wear every day? Do you have a hard time with the five point harness in your rig with the HANS system interfering with your Wilson? Do you find it tiresome only driving between 1am and 5am to avoid other drivers?

The NEC is a minimum safety standard, not the prescription for bubble boy.

Again, I don't think these extreme exaggerations offer anything to the conversation. I still have yet to hear a valid argument from anyone other than "I just don't like AFCIs".
 

ActionDave

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Again, I don't think these extreme exaggerations offer anything to the conversation. I still have yet to hear a valid argument from anyone other than "I just don't like AFCIs".
Saying I can't and won't put a price on life safety is an extreme exaggeration.

Facts about AFCIs.....
There's this from one of our members here,
m/showthread.php?t=170149&page=2&p=1659427#post1659427

And there has been tons of discussion here on the fact that AFCIs do nothing about glowing connections and 120V can't sustain an arc.
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
Saying I can't and won't put a price on life safety is an extreme exaggeration.

Facts about AFCIs.....
There's this from one of our members here,
m/showthread.php?t=170149&page=2&p=1659427#post1659427

And there has been tons of discussion here on the fact that AFCIs do nothing about glowing connections and 120V can't sustain an arc.

Again, this boils down to values and morals. Not a valid technical argument. Also, the link is broken.
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
Here's what will change and what is already changing in regards to how things get wired:

-Permits and inspections are avoided, particularly for smaller jobs

-AFCI protection is completely omitted or simply installed and then removed after an inspection

-More wiring done by homeowners and handymen, or work deferred due to cost


Skirting the AFCI rules will become a strong motivation for contractors. So ultimately, these rules will have the opposite of their intended end which is ostensibly to increase safety (though the real motivation is profit, of course.) The CMP clearly does not have a grasp of what actually occurs in the real world.

Permits and inspections have always and always will be avoided. Home owners will always attempt to do their own wiring. There is nothing that can be done about that except perhaps to make it a crime. Furthermore, any electrical contractor would be absolutely insane and reckless to remove AFCIs after inspection. If a house fire occurred as a result of lack of AFCI protection, the EC would be subject to a lawsuit and possible criminal charges. I hope this is not your practice!
 

George Stolz

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Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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frankft2000

Senior Member
Location
Maine
Here's what will change and what is already changing in regards to how things get wired:



-More wiring done by homeowners and handymen, or work deferred due to cost

Exactly. So now instead of having a electrician come and install wiring without an arc fault breaker, the carpenter installs wiring without an arc fault breaker, or box, or wirenuts, or whatever. In my jurisdiction, there are no permits or inspections. The only time a state inspector is going to show up on a residential jobsite is if there was a fire, or a complaint. The cost should not effect electrician bidding against electrician, all installing arc fault breakers, its when its electrician bidding against the unlicensed world, thats where the cost factor comes in. On a whole house, basically the guy doing it by the book is about a $1,000 behind the person not going by the book. Put that up against homeowners saying that the old breakers worked just fine, and the guy going by the book is in real trouble. This isn't anywhere like getting people to go from fuses to circuit breakers. Most homeowners are in favor of that. Its all about informing the public, but its awfully hard for a electrician to inform a homeowner about something that the electrician doesn't believe in themselves.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Permits and inspections have always and always will be avoided. Home owners will always attempt to do their own wiring. There is nothing that can be done about that except perhaps to make it a crime.

I support homeowners right to do their own work 100%. It should never be a crime.

Furthermore, any electrical contractor would be absolutely insane and reckless to remove AFCIs after inspection.

It gets less insane and reckless when a contractor is faced with eating callback costs related to AFCI nuisance tripping and unhappy customers.

If a house fire occurred as a result of lack of AFCI protection, the EC would be subject to a lawsuit and possible criminal charges.

Of course. It's a calculated risk and in my observation, more and more are willing to take it. As far as an AFCI preventing a fire, I only see the GFPE portion of the AFCI in being effective at fire prevention. Otherwise, it's a paperweight.


I hope this is not your practice!

Not mine, but I don't condemn or look down on anyone who removes or omits AFCI protection. I have stated on this forum that I will refuse to install AFCI protection for heating equipment once the 2017 rules come into force. If you think AFCI protection is added for every single circuit modification or receptacle replacement, you're not living in reality.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Again, this boils down to values and morals.

Since you brought morals and values into this, we can start with the gigantic lie that the manufacturers told about the AFCI in the very beginning. They claimed that they had a combination type AFCI available when that product was not introduced until years later. The entire AFCI has been built on deception from the very beginning. Why should I be a party to something that I know is a fraud and a deception at the point of a gun?
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
Since you brought morals and values into this, we can start with the gigantic lie that the manufacturers told about the AFCI in the very beginning. They claimed that they had a combination type AFCI available when that product was not introduced until years later. The entire AFCI has been built on deception from the very beginning. Why should I be a party to something that I know is a fraud and a deception at the point of a gun?

So basically your position is one of the following:

1. That the mandate of AFCIs is a mass conspiracy perpetuated by Eaton, Schneider Electric, Siemens, etc., in conjunction with the IAEI and other members of the CMP
2. That the mandate of AFCIs is a mass conspiracy by the manufacturers and the IAEI and CMP members are fools and/or are payed off by the manufacturers

Mass conspiracies are illogical and highly unlikely, but it seems that this is what you're implying. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
I support homeowners right to do their own work 100%. It should never be a crime.

I agree, but I think localities should implement a system like they did in my hometown of Janesville, WI. They allow homeowners to do their own electrical, plumbing, mechanical etc. installations but they have to take a code knowledge test.



It gets less insane and reckless when a contractor is faced with eating callback costs related to AFCI nuisance tripping and unhappy customers.

I've been installing AFCIs since 2008 and I have yet to be called back for nuisance tripping.



Of course. It's a calculated risk and in my observation, more and more are willing to take it. As far as an AFCI preventing a fire, I only see the GFPE portion of the AFCI in being effective at fire prevention. Otherwise, it's a paperweight.

IMO, an EC that charges for AFCIs and then removes them after inspection should be charged with fraud!


Not mine, but I don't condemn or look down on anyone who removes or omits AFCI protection. I have stated on this forum that I will refuse to install AFCI protection for heating equipment once the 2017 rules come into force. If you think AFCI protection is added for every single circuit modification or receptacle replacement, you're not living in reality.

AFCIs are intended to protect both branch wiring and appliance/lamp cords from arc faults. However, the NEC allows an exception to protecting branch wiring to the first receptacle if the wiring method is metal (IE MC or EMT). I think the CMP should extend this exception to dedicated, hard-wired appliances. If the entire circuit is run in EMT and then a FLEX whip to the UE, then AFCI protection should not be required.
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
Saying I can't and won't put a price on life safety is an extreme exaggeration.

Facts about AFCIs.....
There's this from one of our members here,
m/showthread.php?t=170149&page=2&p=1659427#post1659427

And there has been tons of discussion here on the fact that AFCIs do nothing about glowing connections and 120V can't sustain an arc.

How can my own moral stance be an exaggeration? How would you know?
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
So basically your position is one of the following:

1. That the mandate of AFCIs is a mass conspiracy perpetuated by Eaton, Schneider Electric, Siemens, etc., in conjunction with the IAEI and other members of the CMP
2. That the mandate of AFCIs is a mass conspiracy by the manufacturers and the IAEI and CMP members are fools and/or are payed off by the manufacturers

Mass conspiracies are illogical and highly unlikely, but it seems that this is what you're implying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Whether it rises to the level of conspiracy or not, I do not know. I am 100% certain that the AFCI is a fraud and a scam. As to why, I'm not going to re-hash all the arguments made against AFCI's here on this forum - I'll simply summarize that I agree with the anti-AFCI crowd wholeheartedly.
 
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