Home Inspection report "double taps"

Status
Not open for further replies.

GerryB

Senior Member
My niece is selling her home. It is a small house, she has 100amp GE panel. There were 4 double taps. The panel had one space available, so I split one of the taps, it had the dishwasher and the mud room. The other three I spliced and put one wire to the breaker. I went through the house with my niece and they were minimal loads, one double was doing entrance lights and attic, one we couldn't even find. Ge doesn't make tandem breakers, I could have put in Siemons or Murray but they are not listed. It seems unnecessary to do a sub panel (plus it's a fieldstone basement wall no room on the existing wood) as this work looked like someone who didn't know what they were doing. I say that because the double taps were 3-wire and there were a couple of other 3-wire cables where the red wasn't being used. The buyer and his realtor saw no breakers listed on the invoice, (I forgot to put down the one I did install) and they opened the box and are complaining about the splices. My niece wants me to just redo the invoice with the breaker on it. I told her I can try to explain that there was no appreciable load on the other wires but I don't think they will like it. Any suggestions?
 

jumper

Senior Member
As far as I know only SQ D and CH CH breakers are listed for two wires in the 15-30 amp range.

GE does not make a tandem breaker, but does make "wafer thin" breakers that will accommodate two of them in one spot, for panels that are listed for them.

If you pig tailed 3 of four double taps, why not the 4th?
 

jumper

Senior Member
Just noticed, they are complaining about splices in the panel.

312.8 allows this. In the 2014 for it is written more clearly than before:

312.8 Switch and Overcurrent Device Enclosures with
Splices, Taps, and Feed-Through Conductors. The wiring
space of enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices
shall be permitted for conductors feeding through, spliced,
or tapping off to other enclosures, switches, or overcurrent
devices where all of the following conditions are met:

(1) The total of all conductors installed at any cross section
of the wiring space does not exceed 40 percent of the
cross-sectional area of that space.
(2) The total area of all conductors, splices, and taps installed
at any cross section of the wiring space does not
exceed 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that
space.
(3) A warning label complying with 110.21(B) is applied
to the enclosure that identifies the closest disconnecting
means for any feed-through conductors.
 

GerryB

Senior Member
As far as I know only SQ D and CH CH breakers are listed for two wires in the 15-30 amp range.

GE does not make a tandem breaker, but does make "wafer thin" breakers that will accommodate two of them in one spot, for panels that are listed for them.

If you pig tailed 3 of four double taps, why not the 4th?
There was one space empty so I split the true double tap in my mind which was the dishwasher and the mud room. The supply house told me GE stopped making the tandems 20 or so years ago.
 

jumper

Senior Member
There was one space empty so I split the true double tap in my mind which was the dishwasher and the mud room. The supply house told me GE stopped making the tandems 20 or so years ago.

Yes, I missed that.

If you split the double tap into two breakers, then there are two circuits and no violation. You fixed it.
 

GerryB

Senior Member
So wait their upset about splices in the panel? :eek:
The inspection report stated that there were "multiple double taps in the main panel and they should be "repaired" by a licensed electrician". Then there was pictures with arrows pointing to the four double tapped breakers. Three of then were 3-wire romex, red and black under the same breaker. There were other 3-wire cables in the panel with the red left unterminated, which indicates to me that someone maybe wasn't quite sure what they were doing and ran a bunch of three wire to anything they added. I spliced the three red and blacks together and pigtailed to the breakers. As I said they didn't seem to be doing much at all. I did separate the older bx double tap of diswasher and another line to the one empty space. They are complaining that there are still two circuits on one breaker, which is true, but if the guy ran a 3-wire to the attic and put two outlets on the black and two lights on the red??. We couldn't even find anything on one of the wires and the house is empty. I should have just put in a couple of Siemans breakers I guess. Again the inspection report just said "repair". (those double taps have to be the first thing the first day they teach at home inspection school)
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Just noticed, they are complaining about splices in the panel.

312.8 allows this. In the 2014 for it is written more clearly than before:

312.8 Switch and Overcurrent Device Enclosures with
Splices, Taps, and Feed-Through Conductors. The wiring
space of enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices
shall be permitted for conductors feeding through, spliced,
or tapping off to other enclosures, switches, or overcurrent
devices where all of the following conditions are met:

(1) The total of all conductors installed at any cross section
of the wiring space does not exceed 40 percent of the
cross-sectional area of that space.
(2) The total area of all conductors, splices, and taps installed
at any cross section of the wiring space does not
exceed 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that
space.
(3) A warning label complying with 110.21(B) is applied
to the enclosure that identifies the closest disconnecting
means for any feed-through conductors.

yep... the "no splices in "panelboards" refers to the panelboard
itself, as it was explained to me, NOT to the enclosure the panelboard
is located inside of.

what i was not aware of is that it seems that the enclosure can
be used as a raceway for conductors fed from other panels?

my personal opinion is that is not a safe install. i'm sure if
you look at the fine print notes, there will be a randy's corallary
to this portion of the code. i am a bit miffed i wasn't asked before
they allowed this, however.

so, it seems to the OP that you can wire nut away, and just print
out that section of the code, and paste it next to the panel.......
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I told her I can try to explain that there was no appreciable load on the other wires but I don't think they will like it. Any suggestions?


For each item on the inspection report you should list whatever action you take to correct the problem listed by the home inspector.

For the loads that you listed the correction sounds good but I think you should find that other circuit that you have no idea about. If it's just wire nutted off in a junction box then it's a spare and doesn't need to be on a breaker.

Did you check to see how many positions the panel was listed for and then check the total number of circuits in the panel ? Maybe you can install a couple of thin GE breakers, the positions that will accept them are normally at the bottom of the bus.
 

GerryB

Senior Member
For each item on the inspection report you should list whatever action you take to correct the problem listed by the home inspector.

For the loads that you listed the correction sounds good but I think you should find that other circuit that you have no idea about. If it's just wire nutted off in a junction box then it's a spare and doesn't need to be on a breaker.

Did you check to see how many positions the panel was listed for and then check the total number of circuits in the panel ? Maybe you can install a couple of thin GE breakers, the positions that will accept them are normally at the bottom of the bus.
That's probably what it's doing. This is an older GE panel that doesn't accept the thin breakers. Makes you wonder why they would design the panel like that for those thin breakers. I don't really like the way they go in. I was in a house a couple of months ago that had a 200amp 20ckt GE panel that had all thin breakers in it, 40 of them I think.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Two wires under one breaker is one circuit not two. You added a splice and a pigtail to mitigate the problem of two conductors under a terminal rated for only one conductor. Problem solved.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
For each item on the inspection report you should list whatever action you take to correct the problem listed by the home inspector.


I like that idea, explain what you did for each issue on the report and why you chose your solution.

Many times there is more then one possible solution to a problem.

Just because three cables come to the panel and are junctioned together there doesn't mean anything is wrong with that, you effectively do same thing if you ran a home run to an outlet box and then split the circuit three different directions.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
This is an older GE panel that doesn't accept the thin breakers. Makes you wonder why they would design the panel like that for those thin breakers. I don't really like the way they go in. I was in a house a couple of months ago that had a 200amp 20ckt GE panel that had all thin breakers in it, 40 of them I think.

It may have been a 20/40 panel to accept that many thin breakers and that would make it legal.


I don't like the darn things either and I have never bought that type of panel but we still have to deal with them.

I would rather have a full 40 position panel. There is normally no real cost difference.

With the GE I think they made a 20/30 of the hundred amp. If they are there and the panel is listed for the extra positions I will use them.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
The inspection report stated that there were "multiple double taps in the main panel and they should be "repaired" by a licensed electrician". Then there was pictures with arrows pointing to the four double tapped breakers. Three of then were 3-wire romex, red and black under the same breaker. There were other 3-wire cables in the panel with the red left unterminated, which indicates to me that someone maybe wasn't quite sure what they were doing and ran a bunch of three wire to anything they added. I spliced the three red and blacks together and pigtailed to the breakers. As I said they didn't seem to be doing much at all. I did separate the older bx double tap of diswasher and another line to the one empty space. They are complaining that there are still two circuits on one breaker, which is true, but if the guy ran a 3-wire to the attic and put two outlets on the black and two lights on the red??. We couldn't even find anything on one of the wires and the house is empty. I should have just put in a couple of Siemans breakers I guess. Again the inspection report just said "repair". (those double taps have to be the first thing the first day they teach at home inspection school)

Its the only thing they teach them in school. You should see what happens when they find #12 on a 30 amp breaker for the AC :happyno:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Its the only thing they teach them in school. You should see what happens when they find #12 on a 30 amp breaker for the AC :happyno:
But you just said it's the only thing they teach them - so they won't know what to do if they find a #12 on a 30 amp breaker for the AC, or if they find a real problem:D

Problem is they are "Home inspectors" and are looking at a wide variety of things, but are often only an expert at fairly limited number of things, and electrical is not one of those (no matter what they may think). If they were experts at electrical or any one specific area for that matter, they should be able to find a much better job then what they have. Now throw in physical and health conditions and you maybe get reasons why they take a job where they don't need to work as hard at what they do even if they are very knowledgeable in a particular area, but HI is still lower on the totem pole then many other jobs they may be qualified for.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
But you just said it's the only thing they teach them - so they won't know what to do if they find a #12 on a 30 amp breaker for the AC, or if they find a real problem:D

Problem is they are "Home inspectors" and are looking at a wide variety of things, but are often only an expert at fairly limited number of things, and electrical is not one of those (no matter what they may think). If they were experts at electrical or any one specific area for that matter, they should be able to find a much better job then what they have. Now throw in physical and health conditions and you maybe get reasons why they take a job where they don't need to work as hard at what they do even if they are very knowledgeable in a particular area, but HI is still lower on the totem pole then many other jobs they may be qualified for.



While getting better, I still see some HI sites where home inspectors refuse to listen to electricians, failing to retain any new knowledge in the process. I was banned from one site years ago after I kept insisting #12 could legally be put on a 50amp breaker when feeding an AC unit and the sticker listing it as the max permitted breaker rating. I kept getting "your advice is strait out dangerous, 50 amps on number 12 will burn down a home no matter what you think will happen" :happyno::happyno: In the end I was dubbed as never having opened a code book while those giving away incorrect and even dangerous advice kept getting listened to. I feel sorry for for home buyers, sellers and the real estate industry.


I am with Joe Tedesco on this one, HI are not qualified to inspect electrical the way the current system works. They need A LOT more training.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
While getting better, I still see some HI sites where home inspectors refuse to listen to electricians, failing to retain any new knowledge in the process. I was banned from one site years ago after I kept insisting #12 could legally be put on a 50amp breaker when feeding an AC unit and the sticker listing it as the max permitted breaker rating. I kept getting "your advice is strait out dangerous, 50 amps on number 12 will burn down a home no matter what you think will happen" :happyno::happyno: In the end I was dubbed as never having opened a code book while those giving away incorrect and even dangerous advice kept getting listened to. I feel sorry for for home buyers, sellers and the real estate industry.


I am with Joe Tedesco on this one, HI are not qualified to inspect electrical the way the current system works. They need A LOT more training.
And a good HI realizes he isn't an electrical expert. When he runs into something he doesn't know about he doesn't necessarily condemn it, but rather makes a note that someone more qualified should check into it.

Goes back to the OP in this thread - HI identified a potential problem - the professional addresses it but then the consumer doesn't believe in what was done because of what they thought would happen based on what HI stated. But then the consumer is the one using the HI as a tool to bargain with the seller - we must also remember that. Seller often is not going to spend even more $$ to get a real pro, or several opinions from real pro's over small cost items on the HI report, they are just going to do what that report says to get it done and over with.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
And a good HI realizes he isn't an electrical expert. When he runs into something he doesn't know about he doesn't necessarily condemn it, but rather makes a note that someone more qualified should check into it.

I agree. I think electrician efforts are starting to pay off in the end.


Goes back to the OP in this thread - HI identified a potential problem - the professional addresses it but then the consumer doesn't believe in what was done because of what they thought would happen based on what HI stated.

Which is not fair to anyone. There is legal bases for the double taps, but for splices there is none.


But then the consumer is the one using the HI as a tool to bargain with the seller - we must also remember that. Seller often is not going to spend even more $$ to get a real pro, or several opinions from real pro's over small cost items on the HI report, they are just going to do what that report says to get it done and over with.


That is true unfortunately. However my concern is when they miss the real dangers. I used to see a lot of panels with MWBC on the same phase and nothing mentioned by the HI. On one house I was buying HI failed to call out a missing chimney linear for a high efficiency gas furnace that was put in place of an oil fired burner.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top