Troubleshooting a sauna

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eds

Senior Member
Looking at a enlighten empower sauna that has me scratching my head. Sauna is 240v with a android touch panel, stereo, led tape light, and 12 volt interior lights. The lights are mr 16 style that can be replaced with a chromatic style lamp ( something to do with therapy) in the process of changing lamps a shock was received, duct work was touched at the same time as metal ring of lamp was touched. I attached a wire from the neutral ground bar in the main breaker panel and with my meter set on ac volts I get a reading of 38 volts, if I set my meter to dc I get a reading of 140 volts. I also drove a ground rod 15 feet from the panel and took a reading from jumper wire to ground rod and have zero voltage. I also produce the same reading to the metal case around the radio. The mr 16 lamp holders are bi pin with the leads going to the floor where the power supply is located. The therapy lamps in question have a led circuit board/disk integral to the lamp that allows them to color change. All breakers have been shut off except for sauna breaker, voltage remains, shut off sauna breaker voltage disappears. Any suggestions? Supplier will be contacted in the a.m.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Not sure but I would first find out if the duct is energized. When you attached the new wire to the neutral in the panel where did you attach the other end?
 

eds

Senior Member
Am using it as a wire to rake readings to, if my duct work is energized and I take a reading from the neutral/ ground bar to a isolated ground rod will I show voltage?
 
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Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Also the voltage is still present with all breakers off except the sauna


If all the breakers are off then it isn't the duct work, IMO but you can turn everything on and then turn off the sauna and you should see a change. I would not touch the sauna if it is under warranty. Without knowing the inner workings of that unit I would wait for a call back. Something is shorting in there.
 

eds

Senior Member
Voltage readings disappear when the sauna breaker is turned off and all other breakers are turned on. Sauna receptacle wires were disconnected from breaker to prevent usage.
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
Could you be reading a ghost voltage.
I would connect an incandescent bulb between the points in question and see if the voltage goes away.
 

eds

Senior Member
Could you be reading a ghost voltage.
I would connect an incandescent bulb between the points in question and see if the voltage goes away.

I have determined that it is not a ghost voltage

Will a measurement from the neutral / ground bar to a independent ground rod show voltage if I would have voltage present on a egc?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I have determined that it is not a ghost voltage

Will a measurement from the neutral / ground bar to a independent ground rod show voltage if I would have voltage present on a egc?

It certainly could show something if there was voltage on the ground. But not 120V...maybe a few volts depending on soil conditions
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I have determined that it is not a ghost voltage

Will a measurement from the neutral / ground bar to a independent ground rod show voltage if I would have voltage present on a egc?
It wasn't clear exactly what was all measured. You had no voltage between the remote isolated ground rod and the neutral at the service panel from what I understand. You did have voltage between metallic components at the equipment to the neutral at the service panel. did you also measure from equipment in question to the isolated rod? If so and there is voltage you about have to have something not bonded (and energized) or a poor EGC back to the panel in the supply circuit.

Is this unit straight 240 volts or is it 120/240 volts and doesn't have a neutral supplied to it, or is using the EGC as the neutral?



Thread title question.

Are you having troubleshooting problems or are you having trouble "shooting" a sauna?:)
 

eds

Senior Member
Straight 240 volts single phase residential setting. I have not checked from equipment to isolated rod, but I did check voltage between both hots and the egc at the receptacle and had 242 between l1 and l2 and 122 between l1 and egc, and l2 and egc. Continuity was checked from sauna egc to panel egc thru sauna chord plugged in-- it rang out. Here is one point that I cant figure out these therapy lams have what appear to be a metallic coating half way up the lamp, the lamp snaps into a metallic trim, and the metallic trim is held in place with spring clips. These trims are installed into the wood ceiling. From the metallic of the lamp or the trim with lamp installed i get a reading of 38v with meter set on AC, or 140v with meter set on dc. The lamps are supplied by a power supply rated 100 thru 240 ac input, 12 volts dc output (electronic power supply). I also know this is not a ghost voltage on the meter, as i experienced a tingle during a test. Where would be the return path be from the metallic trim, as it looks like there is no connection between the pins of the lamp and the trim or the metallic coating on the lamp.
 

eds

Senior Member
Reading have been taken with the lights turned off thru the android, not unplugged at the power supply , no difference with lights on or off. I also get the same readings to the metal bracket around the radio.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
My bet is harmonics, from the DC power supply, which are allowed to flow on the neutral, and elsewhere as long as GFCI - Spa disconnect holds at 4-6mA.
 

eds

Senior Member
Not on a GFCI breaker at the present time, and the power supplies are connected via a female 2 wire chord with the other end soldered to the circuit board. From the power supply two wire leads go into a metal enclosure with cooling fins on it, not sure what this enclosure is, but it is connected to the circuit board metal enclosure egc via a short jumper under the hold down screws of both enclosures ( the screws go thru metal legs into the wood floor ).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
My bet is harmonics, from the DC power supply, which are allowed to flow on the neutral, and elsewhere as long as GFCI - Spa disconnect holds at 4-6mA.
The OP says the unit is straight 240 volts with no neutral.

If there is no neutral the presence of 120ish volts DC may be indication of a rectifier that is operating between an ungrounded conductor and something at/near ground potential but must not be a solid ground connection or else shock hazards would not present themselves.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Gentlemen, the OP has identified lethal violations that compel equipment rejection, and immediate removal from building power.

1) No GFCI / Spa disconnect
NFPA-70 680.43(A)(3), 680.44, 680.44(B)

2) No Equipment Ground - Power cord
NFPA-70 680.43(F)

3) Unlisted / or Field Modified - factory equipment
NFPA-70 90.7 requires factory equipment "has been listed by a qualified electrical testing laboratory" (ETL).

4) Owner Builders may be prohibited from touching this equipment
NFPA 110.3(B) Hot Tub OEM manuals often demand installation by licensed-builders only.

Anyone touching such equipment may void the homeowner insurance policy, and their General-Liability insurance, especially where breaking this law is shown to be willfull.
 
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