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Thread: GFCI requirement for prison cell

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve66 View Post
    I'll third or 4th that. GFCI required. I'm thinking sink, clippers, and barefoot inmates with a bare concrete floor - I wouldn't want to omit the GFCI.

    But I guess putting in a GFCI receptacle in the cell is a problem due to possible vandalism, or similar issues? If the GFCI breaker have a problem tripping, they might be too far away from the receptacles (too much wire length).

    Maybe a deadface GFCI could be located closer to the receptacles? ALso, is there anything else wired to the GFCI breaker? Maybe lights?
    I'm thinking inmate tampering with things and causing ground faults is a high possibility. When locked up you do things like that just for whatever entertainment value it may give you.
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  2. #12
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    government facilities are generally exempt from the NEC anyway unless they choose to adopt it, or some parts of it.

    such things would likely be found in the specifications for doing work in such a place.
    Bob

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by petersonra View Post
    government facilities are generally exempt from the NEC anyway unless they choose to adopt it, or some parts of it.

    such things would likely be found in the specifications for doing work in such a place.
    Federal government, maybe. Around here it still isn't until the fed's would happen to step in and do whatever they have to do to convince the local AHJ that they are not the AHJ. Not a lot of federally owned property around here so I really have no experience with this. Most of what federal offices and such are around here are privately owned and leased to the agency occupying it - no way the AHJ is giving up easily in saying they have no jurisdiction over that.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    Federal government, maybe. Around here it still isn't until the fed's would happen to step in and do whatever they have to do to convince the local AHJ that they are not the AHJ. Not a lot of federally owned property around here so I really have no experience with this. Most of what federal offices and such are around here are privately owned and leased to the agency occupying it - no way the AHJ is giving up easily in saying they have no jurisdiction over that.
    I think you should look closer. the states have no authority at all to regulate what the federal government does, regardless of owned or leased property. The feds might decide to abide by the NEC just because they decide to, after all it is a good idea, but the local AHJ cannot compel them to do so.

    Many states and localities exempt at least some state and local units of government from complying with the NEC while forcing the rest of us to abide by it.
    Bob

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by petersonra View Post
    I think you should look closer. the states have no authority at all to regulate what the federal government does, regardless of owned or leased property. The feds might decide to abide by the NEC just because they decide to, after all it is a good idea, but the local AHJ cannot compel them to do so.

    Many states and localities exempt at least some state and local units of government from complying with the NEC while forcing the rest of us to abide by it.
    I didn't intend to say that the fed doesn't have jurisdiction over a local AHJ, but can almost guarantee most the local AHJ reps would initially want to stick their nose into the project and would only back off once the chief inspector finally gets involved and maybe discovers they don't have jurisdiction on that project.

    Again as I already mentioned there isn't that much federally owned properties around here. Most the federal government offices that are in the area are leased.

    Here state owned buildings are under jurisdiction of the state electrical division even if they sit within a local city/county that has their own electrical inspectors.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    I'm thinking inmate tampering with things and causing ground faults is a high possibility. When locked up you do things like that just for whatever entertainment value it may give you.
    And everything is a potential weapon. If it can be ripped apart, and anything sharp can be smashed out of it, it probably won't be allowed.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    I didn't intend to say that the fed doesn't have jurisdiction over a local AHJ, but can almost guarantee most the local AHJ reps would initially want to stick their nose into the project and would only back off once the chief inspector finally gets involved and maybe discovers they don't have jurisdiction on that project.

    the feds have no jurisdiction over the local AHJ either just like the local AHJ has no jurisdiction within federal facilities. And if they don't know that they will be told very quickly if they try to stick their nose in where it does not belong. I have heard though that in some cases the feds use local inspectors on a contractual basis to inspect the work. I don't know how prevalent that is.


    Again as I already mentioned there isn't that much federally owned properties around here. Most the federal government offices that are in the area are leased.

    It is likely that when it was built the AHJ did have jurisdiction but once it is leased out to the feds generally not, especially if it is the whole building.

    Here state owned buildings are under jurisdiction of the state electrical division even if they sit within a local city/county that has their own electrical inspectors.

    of course. it is generally that way in every state, although again i think there are some "sort of" exceptions where there are agreements for inspections, but not for jurisdiction.
    In Illinois it is even screwier because there is no state level AHJ. It is all done at the local level. So if you are in a village or city, usually the AHJ is some entity associated with the village or city. If unincorporated, or the city/village has not created an AHJ, it is usually the county. But there are a fair number of places in Illinois with no AHJ for electrical at all.
    Bob

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by petersonra View Post
    In Illinois it is even screwier because there is no state level AHJ. It is all done at the local level. So if you are in a village or city, usually the AHJ is some entity associated with the village or city. If unincorporated, or the city/village has not created an AHJ, it is usually the county. But there are a fair number of places in Illinois with no AHJ for electrical at all.
    That restricts who does inspecting. If NEC is being used, then whenever NEC mentions AHJ - then AHJ may be the installer, designer/engineer, insurance company, or even an owner. There very well may be statewide requirement to use NEC even if there is no electrical permit or inspection by a government agency. If you don't follow NEC and the worst happens you can still be sued or even have criminal charges filed in some cases if there is laws stating you should have followed NEC.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve66 View Post
    I'll third or 4th that. GFCI required. I'm thinking sink, clippers, and barefoot inmates with a bare concrete floor - I wouldn't want to omit the GFCI.

    But I guess putting in a GFCI receptacle in the cell is a problem due to possible vandalism, or similar issues? If the GFCI breaker have a problem tripping, they might be too far away from the receptacles (too much wire length).

    Maybe a deadface GFCI could be located closer to the receptacles? ALso, is there anything else wired to the GFCI breaker? Maybe lights?
    Well one thing would be cost on GFCI receptacles. It's not a maximum security prison. Some dorms are allowed to have clippers. It is quite possible things are crammed into some receptacles. Maybe trying to make lighters or whatever. These folks can tear up a bowling ball. There could possibly be lights connected to the them. I've been here 6 months so alot has changed in 34 years probably. It's not real easy to maneuver these areas to see what's hooked up either. I'll have to learn some more about the circuits here. I may just end up asking the warden if only receptacles in the cells are hooked up we just leave the breakers off. The fire marshal comes every so often. He may be able to tell me who has authority over this facility. Thanks for the comments so far.

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