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Thread: Ufer ground

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRKN View Post
    250.50 seems at odds with 250.52(A)(3) wherein it states "If multiple CCEs are present a building or structure, it shall be permissible to bond only one into the GES". I presume this statement overrides the require of 250.50 that all grounding electrodes in a GES are bonded together?
    That's the way I read it
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRKN View Post
    250.50 seems at odds with 250.52(A)(3) wherein it states "If multiple CCEs are present a building or structure, it shall be permissible to bond only one into the GES". I presume this statement overrides the require of 250.50 that all grounding electrodes in a GES are bonded together?
    If the rebar is less than 1/2" you don't need a CEE, 1/2" or larger and 20' or longer rebar you need only one CEE. So if the structure has an existing CEE and you put on an addition with 20' of 1/2" rebar in the footing you are not required to connect it.
    Rob

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    All responses based on the 2014 NEC unless otherwise noted

  3. #33
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    Thanks Rob and Dave.

    Digging around it looks like the verbiage changed from "If available" to "when present" in 2005 code cycle. The ROP from 2004:
    https://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/Ab...-ROP-Part1.pdf

    Looks like 5-115 Log #1559 NEC-P05 is the only proposal where this was suggested, but it came back negative with 3 negative votes and an "explanation of negative". So I'm at a loss for support of this change.

  4. #34
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    The inspector did require the CEE but accepted the ground ring as acceptable. He mentioned that the rebar qualified as CEE and needed to be instaled.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MBLES View Post
    The inspector did require the CEE but accepted the ground ring as acceptable. He mentioned that the rebar qualified as CEE and needed to be instaled.
    If rebar meets or exceeds minimum of 1/2 diameter and 20 feet length, and is not coated with insulating material is used then it must be used as an electrode. NEC does not require adding qualifying rebar if the structural design doesn't use a qualifying material for reinforcement. Adding 20 feet of 4 copper is also optional - and a way to make a CEE if you don't already have one by structural design.
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  6. #36
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    Yes but what if the footing does not contain any structural metal that is likely to be energized?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRKN View Post
    Yes but what if the footing does not contain any structural metal that is likely to be energized?
    How would it be "likely" to become energized? If there is no qualifying rebar then you simply are not required to use a CEE. If there is a qualifying amount of rebar then you must use a CEE. You can use the rebar or lay in 20' of bare #4 and make your own.
    Rob

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  8. #38
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    I should have said "structural metal which is likely to be energized", I'm referring to 250.104(C) - (that's off the top of my head and I believe it's the correct reference). My point is that without any conduit or electrical equipment whatsoever involved with the structure it is not likely to be energized. What I am trying to get at is when does the NEC even apply. If I install a concrete footing out in the middle of nowhere with 20' of rebar in it, and a pipe support T on top of it, it would be a code violation of the NEC if I didn't connect the rebar to the anchor bolts to the structural steel?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRKN View Post
    ...... What I am trying to get at is when does the NEC even apply. If I install a concrete footing out in the middle of nowhere with 20' of rebar in it, and a pipe support T on top of it, it would be a code violation of the NEC if I didn't connect the rebar to the anchor bolts to the structural steel?
    My personal experience, while annecdotal, is there needs to be electricity on site or nearby before anyone even asks about wires let alone code compliance.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRKN View Post
    Yes but what if the footing does not contain any structural metal that is likely to be energized?
    Quote Originally Posted by MRKN View Post
    I should have said "structural metal which is likely to be energized", I'm referring to 250.104(C) - (that's off the top of my head and I believe it's the correct reference). My point is that without any conduit or electrical equipment whatsoever involved with the structure it is not likely to be energized. What I am trying to get at is when does the NEC even apply. If I install a concrete footing out in the middle of nowhere with 20' of rebar in it, and a pipe support T on top of it, it would be a code violation of the NEC if I didn't connect the rebar to the anchor bolts to the structural steel?
    250.104 is not about CEE's, and subpart (C) is about structural steel that isn't also a qualifying grounding electrode.

    250.52(A)(2) describes what structural metal is a qualifying grounding electrode. Such metal that is also a qualifying electrode must be connected to the grounding electrode system whether likely to become energized or not.

    Isolated steel beam in a wood framed building is one example of something that is structural steel that may or may not need to be bonded to.
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