Unlicensed electrical work OK under $500 in CA?

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tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
Greetings all!
I have a relative in California whom upon visiting recently I noticed is remodeling her kitchen with a home owner permit. She hired a "licensed handyman" to do some electrical work as well as other odds and ends. I suspect the handyman is not a C-10 or even licensed and would claim the "under $500" exemption. I noticed a few minor code violations like under cab lights tapped off the kitchen appliance circuits etc. ( at least he used #12 )
So i went on the California website and was not able to come up with a law requiring a licensed electrical contractor for all work.
In addition she had the kitchen inspected and it passed, she seemed to think the inspector would be in no way under the impression that she did the work.
This gives me the distinct impression that the California "under $500" exemption allows electrical work.
Any thoughts?
 

Aleman

Senior Member
Location
Southern Ca, USA
Never heard that one before. I work mostly with controls but have run plenty of conduit and pulled a lot of wire. I'm not licensed, but in my experience
most licensed electricians haven't done much instrumentation and controls work. Is this legal? I really don't know but in most manufacturing operations
the guys doing electrically involved work are not licensed. As far as I know work needs to be able to pass an inspection and meet code but doesn't necessarily
have to be done by someone with a license. I'm in Ca. myself. Wish I could give you a better answer and hopefully someone will.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
In CA a "handyman" does not have to have a contractors license if the cost of the job is below the limit. But in most locations they would also not be able to pull a permit to do electrical work.

The most probable scenario would be that the job would not get permitted even if it required that (and there is no low-cost exemption from the permitting process) or else the homeowner would pull the permit and hope to pass inspection.
In some states when the HO pulls a permit they have to swear or affirm that they will be the only ones doing the work.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
In CA a "handyman" does not have to have a contractors license if the cost of the job is below the limit. But in most locations they would also not be able to pull a permit to do electrical work.

The most probable scenario would be that the job would not get permitted even if it required that (and there is no low-cost exemption from the permitting process) or else the homeowner would pull the permit and hope to pass inspection.
In some states when the HO pulls a permit they have to swear or affirm that they will be the only ones doing the work.


The question is can they do four different $499 dollar jobs at one place - all within short time span - legally. I see that they likely still need to meet codes and file permits - or at least the owner does.
 

Shawn pavich

Member
Location
Fresno ca
In ca the home owner can pull a permit to do anything roof, plumbing,electrica.But the 500$ is labor and materials.Any other building a contractor has to pull the permit for the job being done
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Around here there's always been confusion regarding permitting requirements and licensing requirements. Back in the day any "repairs and maintenance valued at $500 or less to lawfully installed systems..." did not require a permit. But that does not mean any unlicensed Joe can contract for the work. Whether a permit is required or not, if you're doing electrical work, you need to be an EC. But that's Florida. You're asking about Cali.
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
The question is can they do four different $499 dollar jobs at one place - all within short time span - legally. I see that they likely still need to meet codes and file permits - or at least the owner does.

No they can't. If they are caught and it appears that the $500 are related to the same project there is a heavy penalty. The state just did a sting operation catching unlicensed contractors.

The homeowner can pull the permit and act as the general and hire handyman and hourly to do the work, but he/she must have a workman comp insurance.

As far as the building inspector asking for licensed contractor, they don't.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
No they can't. If they are caught and it appears that the $500 are related to the same project there is a heavy penalty. The state just did a sting operation catching unlicensed contractors.

The homeowner can pull the permit and act as the general and hire handyman and hourly to do the work, but he/she must have a workman comp insurance.

As far as the building inspector asking for licensed contractor, they don't.

Though the sting operation did catch some people - it was likely something out of the ordinary for the purpose of catching some people. Otherwise as you said at the end they normally don't ask for a licensed contractor - which leaves doors wide open most of the time for illegal activity to happen. If the contractor were required to file permits for the work they do, it wouldn't curb all illegal activity, but would at least make another hurdle in the path.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Though the sting operation did catch some people - it was likely something out of the ordinary for the purpose of catching some people. Otherwise as you said at the end they normally don't ask for a licensed contractor - which leaves doors wide open most of the time for illegal activity to happen. If the contractor were required to file permits for the work they do, it wouldn't curb all illegal activity, but would at least make another hurdle in the path.

As I understand it (from having been my own GC on an addition) all work must be permitted if it involves more than $500 in labor and materials, an amount allowed to provide for minor repairs. A homeowner can pull their own permit to do their own work. It will be inspected just like any project. But when the inspector arrives to inspect it, if the HO pulled the permit, the HO must be there for the inspection and to answer questions. If the HO hired a handyman and the handyman is there instead of the HO, then the inspector can invalidate the permit and red tag the job if he/she deems it exceeds the $500 limit. So essentially, if a HO tries to thwart the system using a handyman instead of a licensed contractor for a project worth over $500, someone in that situation has to lie about it.

Individual municipalities / counties vary as to licensing requirements. Here in my town, anyone doing more than $100 worth of work for someone else must be a licensed contractor. So when my neighbors ask me to do some electrical work for them, I can refuse based on the fact that I no longer have my license. Works out well for me. :)
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Individual municipalities / counties vary as to licensing requirements. Here in my town, anyone doing more than $100 worth of work for someone else must be a licensed contractor. So when my neighbors ask me to do some electrical work for them, I can refuse based on the fact that I no longer have my license. Works out well for me. :)

HUH,

I have not heard of any CA local city or county that places a lower limit on handyman work.
As far as electrical in CA most work will require a permit, other than changing a device , light fixture, that sort of thing. New wiring requires a permit. That is the state code. So I don't know where this 100 dollar thing comes from.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
California's minor work exception B&P 7048, where not enforced by S.W.I.F.T sting operations, will be enforced by insurance adjusters that deny claims for any un-permitted renovations, which occurred after initial property assessment by insurer / property purchase.
 

10fords

Member
Location
California
As a California contractor for the last 28 years my understanding of the law(s) is this: Any work performed that exceeds $500 (labor and materials) requires a contractors license. I'm not aware of any dollar limit that exempts you from needing to get a permit. It is whether or not a permit is required for the work. As my local building dept says- If you can't do it with a paintbrush you need a permit! And sometimes even the painting needs a permit. We all do small jobs without permits because it is ridiculous to make a half day repair into a $2000 job so some bureaucrat can justify his worthless existence. Some places I have worked will not allow a homeowner to pull an electrical permit as an owner/builder, but they can do any other aspect of the job. Personally I'm against this policy even though it makes more work for me. I think a homeowner should be able to do whatever they want on their own house. Especially since it is being inspected by an (allegedly) expert inspector!
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Some places I have worked will not allow a homeowner to pull an electrical permit as an owner/builder, but they can do any other aspect of the job. Personally I'm against this policy even though it makes more work for me. I think a homeowner should be able to do whatever they want on their own house. Especially since it is being inspected by an (allegedly) expert inspector!

Do you recall what area of the state does not allow a owner builder to pull a permit doing electrical.?
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
HUH,

I have not heard of any CA local city or county that places a lower limit on handyman work.
As far as electrical in CA most work will require a permit, other than changing a device , light fixture, that sort of thing. New wiring requires a permit. That is the state code. So I don't know where this 100 dollar thing comes from.

Sorry, I said contractors license, I meant business license.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Though the sting operation did catch some people - it was likely something out of the ordinary for the purpose of catching some people. Otherwise as you said at the end they normally don't ask for a licensed contractor - which leaves doors wide open most of the time for illegal activity to happen. If the contractor were required to file permits for the work they do, it wouldn't curb all illegal activity, but would at least make another hurdle in the path.

the sting stuff is looking for folks doing significant work without a permit, obviously,
not a ceiling fan install....

however, and i mentioned this a while ago in another thread about lead based paint....
a homeowner can do any scope of work with painting on their own house that they
want to, without certification of any type.

however, in calif. there is a RRP cert. law with some pretty serious teeth to it.
if you are doing ANY work disturbing paint of ANY amount, for ANY amount
of money, and you don't have the epa RRP cert, and get caught, load up your
money gun. the epa will empty your money gun for you.

and, failing nailing you, they will go after the person owning the property. and collect.
for the last two years that i'm aware of as fact, the EPA has had a sting operation
working the gold coast of orange county, (newport beach to laguna beach) that
has 4~6 people driving around the monied neighborhoods, looking for painters
trucks.

they pull over, walk in, and it's game on. fines of $5,000 per instance are common.
it's worse if you have the RRP cert., and your job is not in compliance.
max fine is $37.500 per job, PER DAY.

i didn't bother to do the 8 hour renewal on my RRP, letting it lapse. if i ever need it,
i'll redo the entire course, and pull it again. i had it for three years, never needed it.

the really nasty part is a customer knowing their way around this stuff, can have you
do work, and when it's done, state that if they pay you for this work, they can turn you
in, and the fine will be more than the check they give you, and ask what you want them
to do.... pay you and end up with a big fine, or you walk away free, and save money.

welcome to californication. would you like sand in the Vaseline, or original smooth texture?

http://www.durabilityanddesign.com/news/?fuseaction=view&id=5613
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Does CA require 4 year degree plus some sort of licensing to flip burgers? Wait that isn't correct anymore..... to prepare tofu?
 

10fords

Member
Location
California
Do you recall what area of the state does not allow a owner builder to pull a permit doing electrical.?

It was one of the cities in Monterey county. I don't recall which ones as it was a couple of years ago, but I remember getting a few jobs because the owner couldn't do the electrical themselves. Now that I think about it- it may be that the owner could get the permit, but the electrical has to be done by a licensed C-10 contractor.
 

norcal

Senior Member
The $500 "exception" is you do not need a contractors lic. if the entire job is under $500, you cannot break the job down into smaller parts to stay under $500.

IMHO, inspections in CA are a revenue thing, not safety.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I realize that it is not common to have hailstorms damage a roof in CA like it is here. But if such a roof replacement were common like it is here would those be subject to permits/inspections? All most of them are is rip off existing shingles, replace with similar shingles. Well over a $500 job, but still simple in nature. If they find damage to sub roofing when it is exposed the better contractors will point it out and repairs will usually be made, some of the fly by night contractors that chase the storms may just cover it back up without saying a word.

I can understand if someone opts to upgrade from standard asphalt shingles to some other type of roofing system that maybe some more details need looked into, but that is maybe only 3-5% of the cases around here.
 
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