Not enough space on neutral bus

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teufelhounden91

Senior Member
Location
Austin, TX, USA
I have a customer that is selling their house and got dinged on having double lugged neutrals in their interior subpanel. The problem is there's not enough room on the neutral bus to separate them. Does somebody make a generic neutral bus bar with plastic/insulation behind it that I can screw to the can and add some neutrals to, so I can keep the neutrals floating since it is a subpanel?


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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I have a customer that is selling their house and got dinged on having double lugged neutrals in their interior subpanel. The problem is there's not enough room on the neutral bus to separate them. Does somebody make a generic neutral bus bar with plastic/insulation behind it that I can screw to the can and add some neutrals to, so I can keep the neutrals floating since it is a subpanel?


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That seems odd, it seems like some of the circuit breakers are feeding more than one cable. If that is the case you could splice those particular neutrals together and land just one wire on the neutral bar.
 

1793

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
Occupation
Inspector
I would think that the panel should have enough neutral space for the number of circuits in the panel. Are there any twin or 1/2 breakers that should not be there?
 

teufelhounden91

Senior Member
Location
Austin, TX, USA
I'm 80% sure I've seen someone put a second neutral bus in a panel and bond the two together with a #6. Both were floating as to not bond the can.


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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I'm 80% sure I've seen someone put a second neutral bus in a panel and bond the two together with a #6. Both were floating as to not bond the can.


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In my opinion the only NEC acceptable way to do that is to use a neutral bar that is listed for that panel.

The thing is something else is going on because if the panel is being used per its listing there would be enough neutral spaces.

You mentioned there are twins in the panel, is the panel designed to be used with twins? It will show it on the labeling if it is.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
That seems hackish though.


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A short piece of white wire and a wire nut opposed to cobbling up some parts and trying to fit them in a panel where they don't belong.......which is more hack?

If I was the one paying you and you told me you were going to go get some parts to add a neutral buss to a panel when all that is needed is a wire nut I'd give you a dope slap and find the nearest job where they needed help digging a ditch.
 

user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
There is nothing hack about splicing the two associated neutrals together.

Oh there isn't- but many seem stuck on wirenuts in panels. To them it either isn't allowed (false) and/or denotes poor practice (false and ​ridiculous). Seriously with some guys its like if they were to come up short on wire at the panel, they would rather move cbs or pull another hr to avoid nutting.:lol:

Even if the op could get that extra neutral bar, there would be no real benefit if those neutrals are associated and more trouble involved vs. just making up a joint. Curious too about the listing.
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
If I was the one paying you and you told me you were going to go get some parts to add a neutral buss to a panel when all that is needed is a wire nut I'd give you a dope slap and find the nearest job where they needed help digging a ditch.

Dave, are you originally from New England?

With that attitude you would fit right in. :cool::D
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Is the neutral bar part of the panelboard or just something commonly located in same cabinet?

As has been said there typically is at least enough spaces to handle an equal number of output breaker terminals that the panel is designed for, so there is either too many tandems or twins, or there is multiple home runs per (at least some) individual circuit(s).

Make sure there is no EGC's taking up space - which there shouldn't be any at all if it is not the service panel anyway.
 

teufelhounden91

Senior Member
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Oh there isn't- but many seem stuck on wirenuts in panels. To them it either isn't allowed (false) and/or denotes poor practice (false and ​ridiculous). Seriously with some guys its like if they were to come up short on wire at the panel, they would rather move cbs or pull another hr to avoid nutting.:lol:

Even if the op could get that extra neutral bar, there would be no real benefit if those neutrals are associated and more trouble involved vs. just making up a joint. Curious too about the listing.

The City of Austin won't allow splices in panels. AHJ rules, so again...any constructive way around this?


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teufelhounden91

Senior Member
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Is the neutral bar part of the panelboard or just something commonly located in same cabinet?

As has been said there typically is at least enough spaces to handle an equal number of output breaker terminals that the panel is designed for, so there is either too many tandems or twins, or there is multiple home runs per (at least some) individual circuit(s).

Make sure there is no EGC's taking up space - which there shouldn't be any at all if it is not the service panel anyway.

Neutral bar is part of the panel board, no EGCs bonded, this is a subpanel.


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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The City of Austin won't allow splices in panels. AHJ rules, so again...any constructive way around this?


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Neutral bar is part of the panel board, no EGCs bonded, this is a subpanel.


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Technicalities make a difference here. According to NEC the panelboard is the assembly containing the bus, it is installed in a "cabinet".

IMO city of Austin is objecting to splices in the cabinet (or did they redefine what a panelboard is vs what the NEC defines it as) and is making up rules that don't fully make any sense - is not possible to splice in the panelboard.

NEC doesn't object to splices in a cabinet.

My question earlier was regarding whether the neutral bus is part of the panelboard or is just another accessory inside the cabinet that also houses the panelboard
?
Also can't one consider to some extent that each neutral termination on that bus is a splice within the "cabinet"?
 
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