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Thread: Equipotential grid

  1. #21
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    I saw on one of MH videos that a panel member for the video had a story about bonding a gutter.
    He or his electrician were forced by the inspector to bond the gutter on his house to the exp. grid.
    He had, I believe, a satellite installer doing an install. When he was on the roof he got shocked when he touched the gutter. Not sure what else he was touching.
    The point was why bond something and put voltage on it that no one would be touching to start with.
    If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Bill View Post
    I saw on one of MH videos that a panel member for the video had a story about bonding a gutter.
    He or his electrician were forced by the inspector to bond the gutter on his house to the exp. grid.
    He had, I believe, a satellite installer doing an install. When he was on the roof he got shocked when he touched the gutter. Not sure what else he was touching.
    The point was why bond something and put voltage on it that no one would be touching to start with.
    The code says within X feet.

    If he was so concerned then he should have swapped the downspout to vinyl.

    The satellite example was a bond grid that was just a grid only, and then something shorted to it thus raising the voltage high enough to get a shock.

    If the grid is tied to a good egc and the grid is tied to one or more gnd rods, the grid will always be near zero, and any fault to the grid should throw a ocpd (breaker, gfi, etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by ActionDave View Post
    As well as being a complete waste of time and resources that advice is completely wrong. Ground rods play no role in electrical safety and if you wanted to avoid a shock you would isolate you and your equipment from the ground.
    are you sure you want to stick by your statement?

    being isolated does not make it safer. being isolated, like standing on a glass block, only makes you the same high voltage as the fault, you then have a probability that you bridge the ckt to zero, and whack, you're dead. if i want to be safe then i'll stand on a copper plate that is tied to earth, so that if stray voltage comes upon the plate, i not getting shocked.
    Last edited by FionaZuppa; 06-06-18 at 12:59 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FionaZuppa View Post
    The code says within X feet.

    If he was so concerned then he should have swapped the downspout to vinyl.

    The satellite example was a bond grid that was just a grid only, and then something shorted to it thus raising the voltage high enough to get a shock.

    If the grid is tied to a good egc and the grid is tied to one or more gnd rods, the grid will always be near zero, and any fault to the grid should throw a ocpd (breaker, gfi, etc).


    are you sure you want to stick by your statement?

    being isolated does not make it safer. being isolated, like standing on a glass block, only makes you the same high voltage as the fault, you then have a probability that you bridge the ckt to zero, and whack, you're dead. if i want to be safe then i'll stand on a copper plate that is tied to earth, so that if stray voltage comes upon the plate, i not getting shocked.
    I'm beginning to think you either own a company or have stock in a company that makes ground rods. For the "umpthteen" time, ground rods have nothing to do with an equipotential grid. Nor does the grid or gnd rods have anything to do with clearing a fault.
    If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
    Not sure why that is hard to understand. If you connect the equipotential bonding to the gutters then you are putting the stray voltage up at the roof and on the gutters. A person working on a conductive ladder leaning against the structure can be 20' or more away from the pool but the gutter may still be energized. Hence, the ladder is grounded to the earth and the gutter has voltage on it. What happens when you touch the gutter? That is my point
    What I don't understand is why you would be bonding said gutter unless it or maybe a downspout connected to it is within zone where NEC requires it to be bonded? You asked why bond the gutter - I agree with you, unless a portion of it is within that zone, then you have no choice, and I'm sure you are aware of that also.

    You do still have a possible voltage gradient just outside the perimeter of your pool's equipotential bonding - that bonding does stop somewhere on every installation, NEC's first concern is protecting the users of the pool.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    What I don't understand is why you would be bonding said gutter unless it or maybe a downspout connected to it is within zone where NEC requires it to be bonded? You asked why bond the gutter - I agree with you, unless a portion of it is within that zone, then you have no choice, and I'm sure you are aware of that also.
    This all depends on how it's measured. If the gutter is metal and 10' above the ground but only 3' from the edge of the pool doesn't it still requires bonding even if the downspout is nonmetallic?
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    All responses based on the 2014 NEC unless otherwise noted

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity View Post
    This all depends on how it's measured. If the gutter is metal and 10' above the ground but only 3' from the edge of the pool doesn't it still requires bonding even if the downspout is nonmetallic?
    Another thread is debating this- but very possibly yes.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  7. #27
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    In my case, I was talking about the downspout which is metallic and carries the stray voltage to the gutters. It is all part of the same system so I called the downspouts gutters.
    They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
    In my case, I was talking about the downspout which is metallic and carries the stray voltage to the gutters. It is all part of the same system so I called the downspouts gutters.
    So replace the connector from leader to gutter with a vinyl piece, or replace down leader with a vinyl one, gutter "problem" solved.

    If its a gutter section that has no down leader, and it's within the bonding zone, then just replace the gutter with vinyl. "Problem" solved.

    Should we also bond any metal screws that may also be in the bonding "zone"? How about low voltage lighting fixtures that are metal and are within the bonding zone? You gonna clamp a #6 copper to those fixtures? How about a heavy iron outdoor patio table that is in the bonding zone, need to bond that? What about the iron chairs that go around the table?

    But then again, the gutters are isolated until you bond them, isnt being isolated a safer thing? Or did i not understand the isolated comment?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FionaZuppa View Post
    So replace the connector from leader to gutter with a vinyl piece, or replace down leader with a vinyl one, gutter "problem" solved.

    If its a gutter section that has no down leader, and it's within the bonding zone, then just replace the gutter with vinyl. "Problem" solved.

    Should we also bond any metal screws that may also be in the bonding "zone"? How about low voltage lighting fixtures that are metal and are within the bonding zone? You gonna clamp a #6 copper to those fixtures? How about a heavy iron outdoor patio table that is in the bonding zone, need to bond that? What about the iron chairs that go around the table?

    But then again, the gutters are isolated until you bond them, isnt being isolated a safer thing? Or did i not understand the isolated comment?
    First I’d like to point out it’s # 8 copper. Doing the bond with #6 is just shenanigans. Secondly the reason for the bonding grid is to make sure the potential between the water and any metal reachable parts are the same. If something were to dump power into the water you are safe if the potential remains the same. But if they were to touch something metal (even isolated) while in the pool, the would possibly get a shock from differences in potential.

    This is the same reason that if there were a downed power line next to you and you were to walk away. The difference in potential from one step to another (step potential) would be enough for the electricity to jump up through your foot and out your other foot. If you’re ever in that situation hopping on one foot away from the downed power line would be your safest option.


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  10. #30
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    Hopping on two feet, right next to each other has a much lower risk of falling and the spacing will be very close.
    Shuffling on two feet (moving each foot less that half a "foot" each time) is the conservative way to go and is, I believe, the official recommendation.
    Slow but steady.

    Connecting your two shoe soles with a bonding wire is another alternative.

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