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Thread: Swimming pool bonding.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by FionaZuppa View Post
    And if the feeder or pump frame loses egc then any fault to the motor case then energizes the whole bonding grid. 240 @ 4mA might be deadly while the gfi just laughs at ya.

    depending on where the pump is, what type of water it uses, how often the pump unit gets serviced, the external egc attached to the pump "lug" can become compromised over time. it for this reason i will take a separate bond wire over to the equipment's nearby disco/sub sub panel and attach it to egc there. thus if the pump loses egc your grid does not, etc.
    That is what you want it to do, as long as there are no holes in the grid, users of the pool are not subject to any voltage gradients and don't know there is a problem. Chances are it is still only 120 volts to ground, and chances are the water is conductive enough to easily carry more then 4 mA and will trip the GFCI.

    Not impossible for EGC to come loose in the disconnect either, maybe more likely at motor though.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by augie47 View Post
    hurmpff.. every time I think I know a little something about the Code ....

    I thought at one time the code just stated to leave the equipotential bonding conductor long enough to reach a replacement motor that may not be double insulated. Not sure but this rule to connect to the equipment grounding conductor of the motor has been around at least since 2005 NEC
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
    I thought at one time the code just stated to leave the equipotential bonding conductor long enough to reach a replacement motor that may not be double insulated. Not sure but this rule to connect to the equipment grounding conductor of the motor has been around at least since 2005 NEC
    In the past the grid connection to the equipment ground for the premise was typically through the green # 8 bond at a lighting nitch the encapsulated connection in the nitch was a stud that made connection to the bonding grid on the back out side the nitch

    Of course with low voltage lighting that # 8 green bond is not required.

    Now we have to make that connection at the motor location even if it is double insulated.

    Some install the insulated green # 8 bond even when using a low voltage light, but that is rare.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
    I thought at one time the code just stated to leave the equipotential bonding conductor long enough to reach a replacement motor that may not be double insulated. Not sure but this rule to connect to the equipment grounding conductor of the motor has been around at least since 2005 NEC
    This may have been around the time the international code council and NFPA where coming together in recognizing the NEC as the electrical code for both,

    I think around the same time the general purpose rec. and the twist lock motor rec. went from 10 ft for the general purpose and 5 ft. for the twist lock, to 6 ft for both

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    That is what you want it to do, as long as there are no holes in the grid, users of the pool are not subject to any voltage gradients and don't know there is a problem. Chances are it is still only 120 volts to ground, and chances are the water is conductive enough to easily carry more then 4 mA and will trip the GFCI.

    Not impossible for EGC to come loose in the disconnect either, maybe more likely at motor though.
    it's not what i would want it to do.....

    it's imperative to make sure egc from/to pool stuff is 100%. it's one reason why i advocate that the grid be tied to egc at pump and another location (2 or more separate ties, etc), thus if the bond grid gets energized it will be brought back down to egc value, earth/neutral, and hopefully a ocpd/gfi trips. when you lose the egc the bond grid is ok as long as you dont bridge the ckt near the edge of the grid, etc.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by FionaZuppa View Post
    it's not what i would want it to do.....

    it's imperative to make sure egc from/to pool stuff is 100%. it's one reason why i advocate that the grid be tied to egc at pump and another location (2 or more separate ties, etc), thus if the bond grid gets energized it will be brought back down to egc value, earth/neutral, and hopefully a ocpd/gfi trips. when you lose the egc the bond grid is ok as long as you dont bridge the ckt near the edge of the grid, etc.
    Equipotential bonding isn't about supplementing overcurrent protection. Most of the time you end up with low resistance path back to an EGC anyway, but that isn't the main focus, the focus is keeping current away from pool users, if you have no voltage gradient in/near the pool you have nothing a user can touch that would result in any noticeable current flowing through their body. Yes if the entire network is carrying current the pool user may have a small amount of current but is so small they won't notice.

    No different then a bird sitting on a bare high voltage conductor - as long as he can't touch anything of different potential he never knows any different.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    Equipotential bonding isn't about supplementing overcurrent protection. Most of the time you end up with low resistance path back to an EGC anyway, but that isn't the main focus, the focus is keeping current away from pool users, if you have no voltage gradient in/near the pool you have nothing a user can touch that would result in any noticeable current flowing through their body. Yes if the entire network is carrying current the pool user may have a small amount of current but is so small they won't notice.

    No different then a bird sitting on a bare high voltage conductor - as long as he can't touch anything of different potential he never knows any different.
    A bird on a wire that cant touch anything else is not a good example of a pool scenario.

    And yes, equipotential everywhere lessons probability of a shock, but why even allow the bond grid to have voltage on it above earth?

    And i'll disagree that a bond grid around a pool that is not directly tied to egc has a low ohms path to the egc. Direct tie is zero ohms!

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by FionaZuppa View Post
    A bird on a wire that cant touch anything else is not a good example of a pool scenario.

    And yes, equipotential everywhere lessons probability of a shock, but why even allow the bond grid to have voltage on it above earth?

    And i'll disagree that a bond grid around a pool that is not directly tied to egc has a low ohms path to the egc. Direct tie is zero ohms!
    I didn't say it will have low ohms path I said most of the time it likely does. EGC has resistance to it as well, but when when you only need 4-6 mA to make a GFCI trip it can be pretty high in comparison to what is needed to make magnetic trip function of a breaker operate. 6 mA flows when 120 volts finds 20k of resistance. I think most conductive surfaces around a typical pool will have much less then 20k resistance to ground, therefore GFCI's will function regardless of what the situation with EGC' is. And if all those surfaces are bonded together it likely only lessens the resistance, even though you are not intentionally grounding these items the more there are the less resistance to ground there likely will be. That lower resistance isn't the intent of the equipotential bonding, but is a side effect that is still desirable when it comes to supplementing the GFCI protection.
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  9. #19
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    we are talking about safety. or in another context, 20k ohms vs zero ohms. with one simple tie i'll take zero ohms.

    your 20k is guessing and can fluctuate based solely on weather (rainy for days, 9% RH for months, etc etc). a hard tie is not guessing, etc.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by FionaZuppa View Post
    we are talking about safety. or in another context, 20k ohms vs zero ohms. with one simple tie i'll take zero ohms.

    your 20k is guessing and can fluctuate based solely on weather (rainy for days, 9% RH for months, etc etc). a hard tie is not guessing, etc.
    All I was saying is 20k is enough to let 6 mA of fault current to flow. I'd bet most of the time the resistance is less then 20k, probably less then 10k quite often.
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