Kind of useless appliance guy?

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GerryB

Senior Member
HO called that her built in oven was not working and on the phone told me the appliance repair man said he only had 110 volts at the oven. She said he wanted the breaker checked. After determining on the phone it wasn't a whole house thing I went there the next day. Breaker was fine, 30 amp line, checked it going up in the basement with a non contact tester. It was a newer clean installation. What the appliance guy did was pull a cover and get a reading somewhere inside the oven but he didn't pull the oven and get to the j-box or check the breaker himself. Not that I want to give away work and probably he isn't allowed to remove the panel cover and check the breaker himself but seems like he could have somehow saved the HO a service call by the electrician.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Just to make sure I understand, is the oven supposed to have 240 volts? Or 120?

Did you find anything wrong?

I have been behind HVAC techs that failed to diagnose things like bad resistance ignitors and happily made the repair and charged accordingly.

Nobody's perfect.

If the first guy didn't charge the lady, she still only had to pay for one service call to get her oven working, correct? Or did she get charged twice? At least when the HVAC, etc., folks admit defeat, they also don't charge the customer. That's been my experience, anyway.
 

J.P.

Senior Member
Location
United States
I'm guessing 240v, it sounds like the appliance tech managed to check one leg to ground or after a transformer inside.

I'm assuming the oven still doesn't work? Or were you both there at the same time?
 

GerryB

Senior Member
The oven is not working. I checked what I could without pulling the oven out, which is kind of a big deal. I don't know if the guy charged the HO or not. I would think he would charge because if it was the breaker then he would most likely want to get paid for his time. Or maybe he would apply that to a second trip. He told the HO if the power was ok he would come back and pull the oven. My point is if he pulls the oven and the wire came loose in the j-box will he fix it or have her call an electrician again?
 

J.P.

Senior Member
Location
United States
Don't know. Hopefully that wont happen. Most of those guys will take care of stuff like that especially if they caused it.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
Don't know. Hopefully that wont happen. Most of those guys will take care of stuff like that especially if they caused it.

shouldnt ARM's have some type of electrical cert, they deal with power all the time?
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
HO called that her built in oven was not working and on the phone told me the appliance repair man said he only had 110 volts at the oven. She said he wanted the breaker checked. After determining on the phone it wasn't a whole house thing I went there the next day. Breaker was fine, 30 amp line, checked it going up in the basement with a non contact tester. It was a newer clean installation. What the appliance guy did was pull a cover and get a reading somewhere inside the oven but he didn't pull the oven and get to the j-box or check the breaker himself.

I'm guessing 240v, it sounds like the appliance tech managed to check one leg to ground or after a transformer inside.

I'm assuming the oven still doesn't work? Or were you both there at the same time?


I'm thinking the appliance guy probably knew what he was doing. He checked and didn't get 240V where he knew it should be. He did get 120V to ground. He didn't want to get involved with the building wiring or main panel to check the breaker.

So where is the most likely place to lose one leg of the 240V? Obvious, it's the junction box and that's behind the oven.

Now if it's a loose wire nut and the wiring in that box is all burned should the appliance guy repair it or should the electrician have moved the oven and checked it during the service call?

It's easy to point a finger on a job like this but the real problem is the junction box is in a bad location if the oven has to be removed to check it.
 

GerryB

Senior Member
Did you actually measure 240 at the junction box or inside the oven?
Nope, at the breaker. Then I held the non contact tester to the sides of the wire where I saw it going up. I would say pulling the oven is not my job or something I want to do. Again my point being if the appliance guy can read voltage inside the oven then he can pop the panel cover and determine if the breaker is ok or not (5 minute job) and then proceed from there.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
It's easy to point a finger on a job like this but the real problem is the junction box is in a bad location if the oven has to be removed to check it.

I agree 100%. That being said, the NEC seems to be OK with it or else we couldn't have junctions in boxes that lights or fans have to be removed for access.

I guess it boils down to if he wants the job or not, which may involve having to pull out the unit, which hopefully has enough slack in the cable to do so.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Nope, at the breaker. Then I held the non contact tester to the sides of the wire where I saw it going up. I would say pulling the oven is not my job or something I want to do. Again my point being if the appliance guy can read voltage inside the oven then he can pop the panel cover and determine if the breaker is ok or not (5 minute job) and then proceed from there.

In Michigan a person would need to be a licensed electrician to open up a panel and check voltage on a breaker. I don't know of any appliance techs that are licensed electricians. If not a legal thing in your state, it may be the tech's company policy not to open panels and the like.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
It's easy to point a finger on a job like this but the real problem is the junction box is in a bad location if the oven has to be removed to check it.

I agree 100%. That being said, the NEC seems to be OK with it or else we couldn't have junctions in boxes that lights or fans have to be removed for access.

I guess it boils down to if he wants the job or not, which may involve having to pull out the unit, which hopefully has enough slack in the cable to do so.


There should be enough slack in the cable to pull the unit, they had to install it that same way.

Thinking about pulling those units, it's really a two man job, not that they are to heavy to lift but you need the extra hands to keep from damageing the unit.

I would guess that neither the applaince guy nor the electrician had a helper handy at the time of the service call.

Now that they know the breaker is good the appliance guy will bring a helper and maybe a cart or something to set the unit on while checking the wiring at the junction box ( don't know the height ).

Just because the code allows something doesn't make it a good design or doesn't mean you won't have problems with unit functioning.
 

nizak

Senior Member
I agree with K8. Unlicensed tech pulls the cover and for whatever reason he creates a bigger problem because of shoddy workmanship in the panel. Bare GEC poorly installed is laying near the bus and grounds out, etc.
Now he's on the hook for a possible panel replacement, self injury, etc. Sounds like he/she possibly new their limitations.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
Did you actually measure 240 at the junction box or inside the oven?

Nope, at the breaker. Then I held the non contact tester to the sides of the wire where I saw it going up. ....

Curiousity Q: How is it you know there is 240V at the CB? A non-contact testor won't tell you that.

ice
 

GerryB

Senior Member
Curiousity Q: How is it you know there is 240V at the CB? A non-contact testor won't tell you that.

ice
Checked the breaker with a fluke. Funny Growler mentioned a 2 man job. Had one years ago was very heavy, a double oven. It was a 3-man job, two guys to put it in place and the 3rd guy (me) holding the cable with a string so it would fall in the right spot.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
shouldnt ARM's have some type of electrical cert, they deal with power all the time?
If they are employees of another party there is OSHA to protect them - not that all of them follow any specific electrical safety practices. If they are self employed - they don't necessarily have much regulation if they are only working on appliances. Once they start messing with premises wiring there is more regulation.

I'm thinking the appliance guy probably knew what he was doing. He checked and didn't get 240V where he knew it should be. He did get 120V to ground. He didn't want to get involved with the building wiring or main panel to check the breaker.

Did he know what he was doing? IDK Maybe he did measure a point that is supposed to read 240 volts but unless he was able to access the main supply terminals of the appliance he still has no idea if the lost leg (likely a problem in this case) is in the premises wiring or somewhere in the appliance ahead of whatever point he took his measurement from.
 

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
It's very common for a homeowner to have to call two people/companies. And it's a coin flip to guess who to call first.

a/c doesn't work? Call HVAC company. Oh...no power to unit? Call electrician..

half my house electrical doesn't work? Call electrician. Oh...missing one leg from pole? Call POCO.

same with the oven. The guy inside usually knows if there's power coming in. That goes for oven, a/c, or the whole house.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
erm, wouldnt pulling an element and checking voltage at the terminals let you know if you had 240V w/o opening a deadfront or pulling the unit from the wall? Granted Ive only seen a few oven failures and they were all element problems. Also, app guy or electrician should have showed up with a helper or some kind of adjustable height dolly from the get-go on a built in. I dont ever see a repair to one being a one person job.
 

fmtjfw

Senior Member
These things ought to have plug/receptacle connections (Twist lock perhaps). This gives a test point for appliance/building wiring problem determination and a easy way for a non-electrician to replace the unit.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
erm, wouldnt pulling an element and checking voltage at the terminals let you know if you had 240V w/o opening a deadfront or pulling the unit from the wall? Granted Ive only seen a few oven failures and they were all element problems. Also, app guy or electrician should have showed up with a helper or some kind of adjustable height dolly from the get-go on a built in. I dont ever see a repair to one being a one person job.
Checking voltage at element terminals can tell you that you lost an ungrounded conductor, what it won't tell you is if you lost it within the appliance or somewhere in premises wiring. This appliance repairman needed to verify at the very least that it was lost upstream from main supply terminals of the appliance, before having HO call an electrician.
 
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