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Thread: Receptacles for RV's

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamjamma View Post
    I would expect a high level gfci on the 50 amp outlet..like 100ma or such... with a requirement of lower limits in the RVs... you still want some protection due to wet ground etc...
    The RV isn't all that clear as to whether or not it is intended to be included in changes to 210.8 in 2017 code. But all of what it covered in 210.8 is class A GFCI protection for personnel which is the 4-6 mA trip level. The only justification I have found for most of what was added in 2017 isn't based on statistics of high risk, but rather "we now have devices that are listed for these applications". Take that however you want, seems to be skewed a little from reality of what is truly needed to me.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jap View Post
    Let us pray...... please Lord, don't let this rule include 50a RV outlets,,,,,camping is supposed to be fun,,,, not stressful by having to worry about going to confession when we get back home for taking your name in vane whilst continually running outside to reset The GFI protected outlet on our camping trip... amen.

    Jap>
    Or you could pray at the funeral for someone who was electrocuted because there was no GFCI protection that could have prevented the tragedy.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 480sparky View Post
    Or you could pray at the funeral for someone who was electrocuted because there was no GFCI protection that could have prevented the tragedy.
    That is a toss up.
    Tom
    TBLO

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 480sparky View Post
    Or you could pray at the funeral for someone who was electrocuted because there was no GFCI protection that could have prevented the tragedy.
    I'm not heartless, yet, there comes a point where one must realize that electricity is dangerous in all aspects no matter what the voltage or amperage.

    Is there a large number of reports of people getting hurt by 30 and 50 amp RV outlets?

    JAP>

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 480sparky View Post
    Or you could pray at the funeral for someone who was electrocuted because there was no GFCI protection that could have prevented the tragedy.
    With that Mindset you'd be best not to turn on any power at all.

    JAP>

  6. #26
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    210.8 applies to dwelling units and "other than dwelling units". There is no specific definition of "other than dwelling unit" but we can reasonably surmise that since all of the definitions of one-, two- and multi-family dwelling units state, "a building that...", they intend for dwelling units ( and therefore "other than" dwelling units ) to apply to buildings. We could argue this, but the fact that another Code article (551) specifically gives scope, definitions and requirements directly applicable to recreational vehicle parks, sites, and stands means that it must take precedent over any vagueness or conjecture regarding Article 210.8.

    A recreational vehicle site and a recreational vehicle stand are not defined as buildings or dwelling or other than dwelling units...they are defined as "areas". Again, no relation to and therefore no coverage by Article 210.8.

    Article 551 goes into sufficient detail regarding the need to furnish electrical supplies to recreational vehicle sites in specific manners for us to reasonably determine that 15 and 20 ampere site receptacles shall be GFCI protected, and that 30- and 50-amp receptacles are not required to have GFCI protection.
    Last edited by Craigv; 10-09-18 at 12:29 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craigv View Post
    210.8 applies to dwelling units and non-dwelling units. There is no specific definition of "non-dwelling unit" but we can reasonably surmise that since all of the definitions of one-, two- and multi-family dwelling units state, "a building that...", they intend for dwelling units ( and therefore non-dwelling units ) to apply to buildings. We could argue this, but the fact that another Code article (551) specifically gives scope, definitions and requirements directly applicable to recreational vehicle parks, sites, and stands means that it must take precedent over any vagueness or conjecture regarding Article 210.8.

    A recreational vehicle site and a recreational vehicle stand are not defined as buildings or dwelling or non-dwelling units...they are defined as "areas". Again, no relation to and therefore no coverage by Article 210.8.

    Article 551 goes into sufficient detail regarding the need to furnish electrical supplies to recreational vehicle sites in specific manners for us to reasonably determine that 15 and 20 ampere site receptacles shall be GFCI protected, and that 30- and 50-amp receptacles are not required to have GFCI protection.
    I agree other than end of the second paragraph, 210.8 applies to both dwelling and non dwelling applications and has specific dwelling requirements and specific non dwelling requirements. Then it also has parts (C) and (D), everything else either A or B applies, or no GFCI protection is required as a general rule, need to see later sections for specific applications not covered here, like swimming pool applications for example you need to see what it says in 680 for anything not already required in 210.8
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    I agree other than end of the second paragraph, 210.8 applies to both dwelling and non dwelling applications and has specific dwelling requirements and specific non dwelling requirements. Then it also has parts (C) and (D), everything else either A or B applies, or no GFCI protection is required as a general rule, need to see later sections for specific applications not covered here, like swimming pool applications for example you need to see what it says in 680 for anything not already required in 210.8
    Understood and it also has (E), but the point is that none of these paragraphs describe a recreational vehicle site or stand. An RV site is not a dwelling unit (A), not an "other than dwelling unit" (B) (which still must be a building), not a boat hoist (C), not a kitchen dishwasher branch circuit (D), and not a crawl space lighting outlet (E).

    And if 210.8 encompassed all aspects of RV sites, there would be no need for a redundant requirement in 551.71(F). As (F) has language change updates for 2017, it's unlikely it was simply overlooked when 210.8 was updated.

    There are also requirements for mobile home and park model homes that have 40, 50 and 60 amp services...there's no way the Code now requires those homes supplied via a cord and plug to have GFCI protection.

    I don't agree with the interpretation that "other than dwelling unit" applies to anything other than installations in or on or supplied from buildings.

    Yet another disturbance in The Force caused by vague or non-existent definitions.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craigv View Post
    Understood and it also has (E), but the point is that none of these paragraphs describe a recreational vehicle site or stand. An RV site is not a dwelling unit (A), not an "other than dwelling unit" (B) (which still must be a building), not a boat hoist (C), not a kitchen dishwasher branch circuit (D), and not a crawl space lighting outlet (E).

    And if 210.8 encompassed all aspects of RV sites, there would be no need for a redundant requirement in 551.71(F). As (F) has language change updates for 2017, it's unlikely it was simply overlooked when 210.8 was updated.

    There are also requirements for mobile home and park model homes that have 40, 50 and 60 amp services...there's no way the Code now requires those homes supplied via a cord and plug to have GFCI protection.

    I don't agree with the interpretation that "other than dwelling unit" applies to anything other than installations in or on or supplied from buildings.

    Yet another disturbance in The Force caused by vague or non-existent definitions.
    I don't see that (B) has to involve a building. If I put a 5-15 receptacle, and now with 2017 more has been added, on a post or as part of a pedestal on non residential property - I think most will agree it falls under "other than dwelling units".
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    The RV isn't all that clear as to whether or not it is intended to be included in changes to 210.8 in 2017 code. But all of what it covered in 210.8 is class A GFCI protection for personnel which is the 4-6 mA trip level. The only justification I have found for most of what was added in 2017 isn't based on statistics of high risk, but rather "we now have devices that are listed for these applications". Take that however you want, seems to be skewed a little from reality of what is truly needed to me.
    but, and even I know this, you would only want 50 to 100 ma to start with if covering a group of circuits that probably will have protection on them as well, or it will constantly trip... bot sure how it is stated, think it talks about selectivity... but for a 30 or 50 amp circuit that will feed a bunch of other circuits would use bigger than the required gfci at the actual user outlets... as far as the actual usage outlets you use the normal gfci ratings but it will work properly if you dont start with your biggest choke... like choking a shotgun...
    Student of electrical codes. Please Take others advice first.

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