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Thread: combustible gas detectors added to silent knight FAP

  1. #1
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    combustible gas detectors added to silent knight FAP

    Hello
    I was wondering if it is legit to add another manufactures device to a existing silent knight FAP.
    The property management wants to connect the propane gas detectors to the FAP. Of course these sensors will not be addressable, however they have a NO or NC contact when alarm is set off.

    Any thoughts?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander View Post
    Hello
    I was wondering if it is legit to add another manufactures device to a existing silent knight FAP.
    The property management wants to connect the propane gas detectors to the FAP. Of course these sensors will not be addressable, however they have a NO or NC contact when alarm is set off.

    Any thoughts?
    This shouldn't be an issue at all. Since Silent Knight is a Honeywell brand, your local rep will be happy to facilitate the attachment of Honeywell branded gas detection to the panel.

    The industry is moving away from fire alarm control units (FACU's) being viewed as platforms for fire detection only. If it touches life safety, the FACU is viewed as an appropriate place to land the signal.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadfly56 View Post
    This shouldn't be an issue at all. Since Silent Knight is a Honeywell brand, your local rep will be happy to facilitate the attachment of Honeywell branded gas detection to the panel.

    The industry is moving away from fire alarm control units (FACU's) being viewed as platforms for fire detection only. If it touches life safety, the FACU is viewed as an appropriate place to land the signal.
    That may be true, but I believe activation of the annunciation devices is still strictly reserved for a fire alarm, unless the devices can provide a different notification (maybe they have voice capability?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve66 View Post
    That may be true, but I believe activation of the annunciation devices is still strictly reserved for a fire alarm, unless the devices can provide a different notification (maybe they have voice capability?)
    Thanks.
    Do you kmow were in the code that is referenced?

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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander View Post
    Thanks.
    Do you kmow were in the code that is referenced?
    I don't have a current code, but I know where he is coming from. Perhaps his semantics were off, but I believe he means that the temporal code three audible and the visual strobe notification of the Notification appliance devices (not the annunciating devices as he stated.) can't be used for non fire related evacuation signal. This is also true of CO detectors although I am pretty sure this is violated regularly. It is complicated to get a conventional NAC device to put out both code three and code four and requires extra control relays and NAC power zones.

    As long as the intention is to send a supervisory to the panel or annunciator, or trigger a different notification device it is just fine.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Strathead View Post
    I don't have a current code, but I know where he is coming from. Perhaps his semantics were off, but I believe he means that the temporal code three audible and the visual strobe notification of the Notification appliance devices (not the annunciating devices as he stated.) can't be used for non fire related evacuation signal. This is also true of CO detectors although I am pretty sure this is violated regularly. It is complicated to get a conventional NAC device to put out both code three and code four and requires extra control relays and NAC power zones.

    As long as the intention is to send a supervisory to the panel or annunciator, or trigger a different notification device it is just fine.
    You are correct, gas detection should NOT activate the fire alarm notification appliances. If you have a mass notification system, you can run the amber strobes and send a voice message regarding a gas alarm out over the speakers. I suppose that if it is an older system it is up to the AHJ and fire department how they want to handle a gas alarm.

    CO detectors are supposed to sound a temporal 4 signal on activation, otherwise they are like smoke detectors as far as being alarm devices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gadfly56 View Post
    You are correct, gas detection should NOT activate the fire alarm notification appliances. If you have a mass notification system, you can run the amber strobes and send a voice message regarding a gas alarm out over the speakers. I suppose that if it is an older system it is up to the AHJ and fire department how they want to handle a gas alarm.

    CO detectors are supposed to sound a temporal 4 signal on activation, otherwise they are like smoke detectors as far as being alarm devices.
    Yup, just did a 7 story with some CO detectors. Pain in the butt!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Strathead View Post
    Yup, just did a 7 story with some CO detectors. Pain in the butt!
    IIRC, Silent Knight allows you to define notification zones and the temporal patterns used therefore. You can have a NAC that's in one zone for smoke detection and another zone for CO detection with different temporal patterns for each. How did you wind up doing it?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadfly56 View Post
    IIRC, Silent Knight allows you to define notification zones and the temporal patterns used therefore. You can have a NAC that's in one zone for smoke detection and another zone for CO detection with different temporal patterns for each. How did you wind up doing it?
    I am adding here that we perform installation and Simplex provides "parts and smarts"

    The System was Simplex and it was too late to do it the way we should have. Simplex is still learning how to best use their addressable NACs. So, the system was designed as follows:
    • Full coverage smoke detection and CO in the corridors and common areas
    • Full coverage smokes on the first floor with CO in certain areas
    • Full sprinkler system
    • Addressable NACS in the corridors first floor, and common areas.
    • The rooms had a smoke detector with a sounder base. they don't make an addressable sounder base yet, so they were conventional zones.
    • CO detectors by the way are in the base of the smoke detectors and that includes sounder bases. There were only in five rooms in a single area thankfully.


    So Simplex addressable NACS are spectacular once you get them. They can be programmed to send temporal code three upon fire alarm activation and temporal code 4 when a supervisory CO comes in. That means all the corridors were covered. Code doesn't require global notification of CO so the sounder base in the rooms need not activate. Had the customer desired, the system could have been set up where only the nearest horn give a code 4 audible for any individual CO detector activation. Pretty cool.

    The rooms were the problem. Simplex failed to properly design the 5 rooms that had CO detectors. After much problem and of course, at 7:00 at night the day before final occupancy inspection we had the solution. In order for conventional NACS to give forth both code 3 and code 4 signals, it has to be done at the Power supply. Not only that, but it requires a separate zone, so a 4 zone FCPS can use three zones for temporal code three, but the fourth zone has to be reserved for code four and all the devices on that zone will switch from one to the other when demanded. This is also complicated by the fact that a sounder base triggers a local alarm, so only the base that activates will sound. So we had to pull a separate zone for those five rooms and add an FCPS at the last minute to fix it.

    As an afterthought, I told Simplex, that if we ever do it again, I will insist on standard addressable detector bases in the rooms and an addressable minihorn. The cost would actually be about the same with the exception that the power supply zones are a little more expensive. That way you need a CO, put a CO base in and reprogram the NAC.

    I know this is deep for anyone else who has read this far, but I am betting that you (gadfly) was asking in this depth.


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strathead View Post
    I am adding here that we perform installation and Simplex provides "parts and smarts"

    The System was Simplex and it was too late to do it the way we should have. Simplex is still learning how to best use their addressable NACs. So, the system was designed as follows:
    • Full coverage smoke detection and CO in the corridors and common areas
    • Full coverage smokes on the first floor with CO in certain areas
    • Full sprinkler system
    • Addressable NACS in the corridors first floor, and common areas.
    • The rooms had a smoke detector with a sounder base. they don't make an addressable sounder base yet, so they were conventional zones.
    • CO detectors by the way are in the base of the smoke detectors and that includes sounder bases. There were only in five rooms in a single area thankfully.


    So Simplex addressable NACS are spectacular once you get them. They can be programmed to send temporal code three upon fire alarm activation and temporal code 4 when a supervisory CO comes in. That means all the corridors were covered. Code doesn't require global notification of CO so the sounder base in the rooms need not activate. Had the customer desired, the system could have been set up where only the nearest horn give a code 4 audible for any individual CO detector activation. Pretty cool.

    The rooms were the problem. Simplex failed to properly design the 5 rooms that had CO detectors. After much problem and of course, at 7:00 at night the day before final occupancy inspection we had the solution. In order for conventional NACS to give forth both code 3 and code 4 signals, it has to be done at the Power supply. Not only that, but it requires a separate zone, so a 4 zone FCPS can use three zones for temporal code three, but the fourth zone has to be reserved for code four and all the devices on that zone will switch from one to the other when demanded. This is also complicated by the fact that a sounder base triggers a local alarm, so only the base that activates will sound. So we had to pull a separate zone for those five rooms and add an FCPS at the last minute to fix it.

    As an afterthought, I told Simplex, that if we ever do it again, I will insist on standard addressable detector bases in the rooms and an addressable minihorn. The cost would actually be about the same with the exception that the power supply zones are a little more expensive. That way you need a CO, put a CO base in and reprogram the NAC.

    I know this is deep for anyone else who has read this far, but I am betting that you (gadfly) was asking in this depth.
    Thanks for the detail. If you ever have to do it again, talk to Siemens. They already have an addressable sounder (ABHW-4) base that will do Temp 3/Temp 4 depending on which element of the multi-criteria detector activates. The "S" version also does the 520 Hz tone for sleeping areas. Hat trick!

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