Expansion joint before meter socket question

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bubbamauser

Member
Location
Pittsburgh
I have an inspector asking for an expansion joint pvc at the service entrance before the meter the utility wants it gone before they will turn it on he wants me to file for a board of appeals hearing to remove it has anyone heard of such BS
 

kenman215

Senior Member
Location
albany, ny
I have an inspector asking for an expansion joint pvc at the service entrance before the meter the utility wants it gone before they will turn it on he wants me to file for a board of appeals hearing to remove it has anyone heard of such BS

The utility wants it gone? I'm assuming it's piped in conduit the entire way, thus the joint?
 

Carultch

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I have an inspector asking for an expansion joint pvc at the service entrance before the meter the utility wants it gone before they will turn it on he wants me to file for a board of appeals hearing to remove it has anyone heard of such BS

Why does the utility have jurisdiction to require you to violate the NEC? The NEC requires expansion joints where PVC conduit is subject to differential ground movement, and that problem will persist regardless of whose scope it is to install the conduit.

I can understand a utility having rules that are less than the NEC, for that which is in their own scope. But I cannot understand how it is incorrect to build above and beyond utility rules in order to meet the NEC, in applications of scope overlap.
 

kenman215

Senior Member
Location
albany, ny
I'm with Carultch on this one. Total BS. If you've ever had to reattach a live meter that pulled out of the OSB from an improper install without an expansion joint, you realize the importance of the thing.
 

Bubbamauser

Member
Location
Pittsburgh
The way it was explained the joint can hide a conductor pulling out or moving w/o it it can be seen. They aren't turning it on so they have authority over it.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Where is the service point, and is the utility supplying and installing the conductors to the line side of the meter? If the service point is the line side of the meter and the utility is supplying the conductors, the conduit in question is not subject to inspection by the local code authority. The NEC rules and the local inspection authority start at the load side of the service point.
 

luckylerado

Senior Member
... the conduit in question is not subject to inspection by the local code authority.....

This has become my new favorite code reference .....

90.2 Scope
(B) Not Covered. This Code does not cover the following:
(5) Installations under the exclusive control of an electric utility
where such installations
a. Consist of service drops or service laterals, and associated
metering, or...
 

GerryB

Senior Member
I have an inspector asking for an expansion joint pvc at the service entrance before the meter the utility wants it gone before they will turn it on he wants me to file for a board of appeals hearing to remove it has anyone heard of such BS
From the posts it appears to be the POCO's call. So my question is hasn't this come up before? It seems like the inspector should know all about it and there shouldn't be any issue. Is this a small town remote area? How can you appeal it if those are the POCO regulations. Is this inspector a new guy? doesn't like you? (I didn't quite get what you said the POCO reason was, hide a wire?)
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
... (I didn't quite get what you said the POCO reason was, hide a wire?)
Sounded to me like the POCO representative is saying the expansion joint will allow vertical conduit movement greater than what the wires will permit. One or more wires can be pulled out of their lugs and the conduit will not show any sign of that happening.

It's a lame arse excuse, as wires should be arranged to permit expansion/contraction [which is required under NEC purview].
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
This has become my new favorite code reference .....

90.2 Scope
(B) Not Covered. This Code does not cover the following:
(5) Installations under the exclusive control of an electric utility
where such installations
a. Consist of service drops or service laterals, and associated
metering, or...
But you have to know where the service point is to apply that. That varies from utility to utility and is set by the utility not the local inspection authority.

Service conductors (overhead), and service conductors (underground) look and act identical to service drops and service laterals, but the first two are covered by the rules in the NEC as they are on the load side of the service point, and the second two, being on the line side of the service point are not covered by the NEC.

Around here more and more installations are requiring service conductors (overhead) or service conductors (underground) making them subject to the rules of the NEC, including conductor sizing, so these conductors will be substantially larger than if they were service drops or service laterals.
 

luckylerado

Senior Member
But you have to know where the service point is to apply that. That varies from utility to utility and is set by the utility not the local inspection authority.

If the line side of the meter is made inaccessible then it is under the exclusive control of the utility regardless of who installs the raceway would you not agree?
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
If the line side of the meter is made inaccessible then it is under the exclusive control of the utility regardless of who installs the raceway would you not agree?
No. The fact that the utility cash register may be on the load side of the service point has nothing to do with where the rules of the NEC start. They start at the service point.
Also the very fact that the electrician installed the meter can and the customer owns it means it is not under the exclusive control of the utility.
 

meternerd

Senior Member
Location
Athol, ID
Occupation
retired water & electric utility electrician, meter/relay tech
This sounds like a "my truck is bigger than your truck" thing. In my POCO opinion, they probably have seldom if ever dealt with expansion joints. They probably require no fittings or boxes ahead of the service point. Personally, as a former POCO inspector, I'd be fine with it. We would leave enough loop in the service drops to account for frost heave. In Alaska, heave could raise meter pedestals several inches, so trouble calls for single phase or neutral problems was VERY often due to tight U/G service wiring. But, that's assuming the utility installs the service conductors. Not always the case. I guess it's a question of who "gives" first, POCO or AHJ. Good luck! If the POCO refuses to hook you up, they probably have the bigger hammer.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top