Kitchen Microwave

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Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
I'm wiring some small assisted living apartments. The kitchen has a fridge a sink, counter space, but no range. It has a shelf the owners will provide a microwave that fits in the spot. There will be a dedicated outlet for it. It is NOT fastened in place. It just slides in.

The engineer only drew 1 kitchen counter circuit.
He / She must not consider this a kitchen. Do you consider it a kitchen?
They did write kitchen on the print in that room.


Oh also ,
Would some body tell me where in the NEC it says no outlets above a drop ceiling?
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Boy you could see that one coming.

AHJ is ultimately who you have to satisfy. Giving them a call early on may be best.

Regardless of what's required, you should expect that the microwave, a coffee pot and who knows what else will be plugged in (kitchen tv?).
Is all that going to be fine on one branch circuit?
Maybe you should call the engineer who drew the plans and see if he wants to reconsider.

edit: I missed the part on dedicated circuit for microwave.
 
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edlee

Senior Member
I'm wiring some small assisted living apartments. The kitchen has a fridge a sink, counter space, but no range. It has a shelf the owners will provide a microwave that fits in the spot. There will be a dedicated outlet for it. It is NOT fastened in place. It just slides in.

The engineer only drew 1 kitchen counter circuit.
He / She must not consider this a kitchen. Do you consider it a kitchen?
They did write kitchen on the print in that room.


Oh also ,
Would some body tell me where in the NEC it says no outlets above a drop ceiling?

It might have to do with the classification of the units. If they are considered dwelling units, then they have to have kitchens, so two counter circuits. If they are boarding rooms or some such lesser thing then they don't require kitchens, so 1 counter circuit would suffice.
 

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
It might have to do with the classification of the units. If they are considered dwelling units, then they have to have kitchens, so two counter circuits......
two counter circuits, or two small appliance circuits?imo, the microwave circuit would count as small appliance
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
I hooked up a microwave convection oven hood up a week ago that was 240 volts 30 amps and came with a built in 4 wire dryer cord pigtail. Heavy as all hell. I would say that was a permanent provision for cooking, even though the prints called the area a wet bar. Yes, the hole drilled thru the cabinet above for the pigtail was huge...
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Is a cord connected range permanent? Hot plate?:)

There is no question that the definition has a lot to be desired but seriously---a hot plate and a range? Big difference. If you look at real estate sales the range is considered fixed and people don't take them when they sell. A hot plate and a kitchen counter mw do go with the owners.

If I were doing a building as the op mentioned then each extra circuit costs lotsa money for all those rooms. Generally speaking you will not see regular cooking in an assisted living place so the need, imo for 2 circuits is not needed.
 

kenman215

Senior Member
Location
albany, ny
I'm wiring some small assisted living apartments. The kitchen has a fridge a sink, counter space, but no range. It has a shelf the owners will provide a microwave that fits in the spot. There will be a dedicated outlet for it. It is NOT fastened in place. It just slides in.

The engineer only drew 1 kitchen counter circuit.
He / She must not consider this a kitchen. Do you consider it a kitchen?
They did write kitchen on the print in that room.


Oh also ,
Would some body tell me where in the NEC it says no outlets above a drop ceiling?

How much counter space are we talking. In me head, I'm imagining two feet on one side of the sink and 18" on the other side? If you have enough counter that multiple small appliances could fit on, I might consider the extra circuit due to the possibility of overload.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
If you look at real estate sales the range is considered fixed and people don't take them when they sell. A hot plate and a kitchen counter mw do go with the owners.

Must be a local thing, around here, generally the range goes with the owners.

I think it has more to do with people our age looking at a microwave as a secondary cooking appliance when many in the younger generation would look at a microwave as the primary cooking appliance.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
I think it has more to do with people our age looking at a microwave as a secondary cooking appliance when many in the younger generation would look at a microwave as the primary cooking appliance.


So true. :p I don't know where I would be without one. :lol:
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
There is no question that the definition has a lot to be desired but seriously---a hot plate and a range? Big difference. If you look at real estate sales the range is considered fixed and people don't take them when they sell. A hot plate and a kitchen counter mw do go with the owners.

I disagree.

It can and does go either way. Sometimes the seller leaves the fridge and stove, sometimes not. The same for the washer and dryer.

It sure is easier to slide out a range and un-plug it than it is a refrigerator. To me, anyway.

To me, permanent means bolted, screwed or nailed in. Not just slid in like a range.

As for ranges, I am sure most inspectors consider them to be 'permanent', although they don't really fit the definition of same.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Must be a local thing, around here, generally the range goes with the owners.

I think it has more to do with people our age looking at a microwave as a secondary cooking appliance when many in the younger generation would look at a microwave as the primary cooking appliance.

Or the real estate sales person has them removed if the house is on the market empty.

It's way easier to sell a house that doesn't have an old, dirty, nasty range in it than just an easy to clean space for same.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Okay perhaps your areas do take the range-- not the case here-- w/d yes, and sometimes the refrigerator but I have never seen the range go with the seller. Anyway my point is that it is a very different animal then a portable microwave. Now built in may be a good argument. The units I have seen for assisted living did not supply the mw however that may be different in other areas.

Obviously this needs work..
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Just to add.....

When I moved in this house, there was no range here. The previous occupant took it. Having been rushed into the move, I fared quite well with a microwave, a 120 volt single burner plug in and a propane camp stove until I found the range I wanted. They took the fridge, too. I used an apartment sized fridge that was left behind, upstairs (????? only bedrooms upstairs), but fully functional.

So, when is a kitchen not a kitchen??

:D
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Okay perhaps your areas do take the range-- not the case here-- w/d yes, and sometimes the refrigerator but I have never seen the range go with the seller. Anyway my point is that it is a very different animal then a portable microwave. Now built in may be a good argument. The units I have seen for assisted living did not supply the mw however that may be different in other areas.

Obviously this needs work..

I just read that in some states, NJ being one, the range MUST stay with the home.

Not so in Michigan.
 
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