Height of Meter Base & FEMA questions

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Hello all

I am a Gen contractor located here in Florida, Currently have a House nearing CO. Planning dept now sighting FEMA recommendations that Meter Base be above flood. The zone is VE 14 so Meter Base would have to be 15 feet up in the air on a poll or on the side of the house. Also if its thats high the power company wants a platform with handrails stairs made to access it out of Galvanized metal to service it. The Meter was energized after rough in and Final electrical was passed by city inspector, along with a Temp to Perm Approval letter sent from City sent to electrical company Stating ok to Energize with Final electric. Now a 1.5 years later house is going to CO and city wants Meter Placed at 15 feet.

1) Is This a New Requirement in Electrical industry ( Electrical company does not support it ) Appears to be a FEMA recommendation .

2) Anyone else hearing or seeing this ? My electrical Contractor said that he installed to the code for the time that permit was issued and that would be the code we would be held to, And that they should not be able to go back and change the rules requiring this.

3) and what would be the purpose of this since 99.5 % of city the meters are at 5-6 feet off grade per NEC code

Any input would be great appreciated

Regards

Coconut Sunrise
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Although I've not experienced a situation where 15ft was required, there have been several occasions where such action was required locally due to the FEMA flood areas.
A few years back, after some local flooding, one of our POCOs required several meters at existing houses/docks to be raised.
Is the residence itself in the flood zone ?
Power Companies are in a bit of a unique situation. Follow there rules or don't use their power :)
 
Although I've not experienced a situation where 15ft was required, there have been several occasions where such action was required locally due to the FEMA flood areas.
A few years back, after some local flooding, one of our POCOs required several meters at existing houses/docks to be raised.
Is the residence itself in the flood zone ?
Power Companies are in a bit of a unique situation. Follow there rules or don't use their power :)


Yes the House is Stilted and Located in a VE 14 Flood Zone Per FEMA

The City now wants Meter elevated, Despite their Passing Rough in Electrical, Final electrical, and Approved TEMP to Perm Letter sent to electrical co-op give the OK to Energize Meter Base for house. All done 1.5 years ago

The Power Co-op is Fine with the Meter ht and the engineers at the elect Co-op are Not in Favor of the Current City ruling.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Good morning Coconut Sunrise & welcome to the forums:

There's the building code, the electric code, and the local flood prevention ordinance to contend with.

In Florida the date of application for the permit controls what code edition is in effect for the life of the permit and any extensions granted to it.

That being said, what is the date of application for the permit?

What NEC code edition did you use?

Is this a 70A job or 70?

Is this new construction or remodel?

Your location in your profile (displayed in top right corner) says Marathon. Is this job in the city of Marathon? Or is it in unincorporated Monroe County? Or somewhere else?

You said the planning department is raising this issue? City or county?
 
Good morning Coconut Sunrise & welcome to the forums:

There's the building code, the electric code, and the local flood prevention ordinance to contend with.

In Florida the date of application for the permit controls what code edition is in effect for the life of the permit and any extensions granted to it.

That being said, what is the date of application for the permit?

What NEC code edition did you use?

Is this a 70A job or 70?

Is this new construction or remodel?



6-24-2011 permit issued

New construction

city of Marathon

Regards & THANKYOU !!!

coconut Sunrise
 

Iron_Ben

Senior Member
Location
Lancaster, PA
I dealt with this issue more than a few times, when working for the poco in hurricane-vulnerable south Louisiana. Each case is different, and often messy. The fact that you have the power company on your side is very good. Perhaps they can be convinced to go to bat for you. You might ask them for a written waiver stating, "We're good with the meter at this height" or some such. Also, you're well within your rights to go over the head of the person with the city who is issuing this inflexible and costly decision. In cases like this, persistence - polite but firm - usually goes a long way. Good luck!
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
6-24-2011 permit issued
New construction
city of Marathon
Don't want to be a spoiler here but as I have told others, all areas subject to flooding are also subject to the requirements of Article 682 Natural and Artificially Made Bodies of Water. Being this house is built on stilts already lends to the fact it is in a tidal or flood zone, which is further testified to by yourself. At times overlooked by both AHJ and contractor, here is the pertinent definition from 682.2:

Electrical Datum Plane. The electrical datum plane as
used in this article is defined as follows:
(1) In land areas subject to tidal fluctuation, the electrical
datum plane is a horizontal plane 600 mm (2 ft) above
the highest tide level for the area occurring under normal
circumstances, that is, highest high tide.
(2) In land areas not subject to tidal fluctuation, the electrical
datum plane is a horizontal plane 600 mm (2 ft)
above the highest water level for the area occurring
under normal circumstances.
(3) In land areas subject to flooding, the electrical datum
plane based on (1) or (2) above is a horizontal plane
600 mm (2 ft) above the point identified as the prevailing
high water mark or an equivalent benchmark based
on seasonal or storm-driven flooding from the authority
having jurisdiction.
(4) The electrical datum plane for floating structures and
landing stages that are (1) installed to permit rise and
fall response to water level, without lateral movement,
and (2) that are so equipped that they can rise to the
datum plane established for (1) or (2) above, is a horizontal
plane 750 mm (30 in.) above the water level at
the floating structure or landing stage and a minimum
of 300 mm (12 in.) above the level of the deck.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Don't want to be a spoiler here but as I have told others, all areas subject to flooding are also subject to the requirements of Article 682 Natural and Artificially Made Bodies of Water. Being this house is built on stilts already lends to the fact it is in a tidal or flood zone, which is further testified to by yourself. At times overlooked by both AHJ and contractor, here is the pertinent definition from 682.2:

You stated that very diplomatically!

Project is under 2008 or 2005 NEC. Permit was issued 2011 meaning it was applied for sometime before that. Date of application controls code edition, not date of issuance. And Florida lags about 1.5 cycles behind everyone else.

I spoke with OP on the phone earlier today. I know some people down there and I was the city flood guy here for 15 years; I'm a FEMA EMI/ NETC graduate too.
Not saying we can get him out of it but it's good to know what result an analysis of all material facts produces. If the field inspectors screwed up during construction it wouldn't be the first time.

Knowing what year Art 682 came into play may help. Do you know what year that come into the code?
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Update: Found an article online that says art 682 was new for 2005.

I noticed in the 2008 it only required 12" freeboard (vertical distance above base flood elevation).

Also found the city's ordinance. It was adopted in 2012 - after his permit so that ordinance does not apply. It will be the former ordinance which is unavailable online. He'll have to get it from the clerk.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
This is not an NEC issue, nor is it likely a FBC issue. (This project would have been permitted under the 2007 FBC / 2008 NEC)

The only applicable sections of the FBC that may apply are Section 3109 if the structure is seaward of the C.C.C.L. and Section R323 of the FBC-R which gives the authority to regulate flood-resistant construction to the local authority.

So, you need to get a copy of the local flood protection ordinance which will be located in the city code. The city likely requires all structures located in a flood hazard area to comply with the FEMA - NFIP and all other above-code requirements outlined in the city's CRS. It is likely the city requires FULL compliance with the ASCE 24 and FEMA 348 as it applies to electrical utilities.

FPL has no authority to waive a city requirement. The AHJ (The City CFM or BCA) has no authority to waive requirements outlined in their city code or as required by the FEMA - NFIP and CRS.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
...Also found the city's ordinance. It was adopted in 2012 - after his permit so that ordinance does not apply. It will be the former ordinance which is unavailable online. He'll have to get it from the clerk.
Perhaps, but I'm giong to guess NEC Article 682 was in effect. Here's the pertinent part from 2005 edition, and it hasn't changed.
682.10 Electrical Equipment and Transformers. Electri-
cal equipment and transformers, including their enclosures,
shall be specifically approved for the intended location. No
portion of an enclosure for electrical equipment not identi-
fied for operation while submerged shall be located below
the electrical datum plane.
I've underlined the only part that may get him out of the jam... but it is hard to get past the requirement of the second sentence. At best the city may have "been asleep" when approving, but that don't excuse the contractor IMO.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
This is not an NEC issue, nor is it likely a FBC issue. (This project would have been permitted under the 2007 FBC / 2008 NEC)

The only applicable sections of the FBC that may apply are Section 3109 if the structure is seaward of the C.C.C.L. and Section R323 of the FBC-R which gives the authority to regulate flood-resistant construction to the local authority.

So, you need to get a copy of the local flood protection ordinance which will be located in the city code. The city likely requires all structures located in a flood hazard area to comply with the FEMA - NFIP and all other above-code requirements outlined in the city's CRS. It is likely the city requires FULL compliance with the ASCE 24 and FEMA 348 as it applies to electrical utilities.

FPL has no authority to waive a city requirement. The AHJ (The City CFM or BCA) has no authority to waive requirements outlined in their city code or as required by the FEMA - NFIP and CRS.

He's going to go in the office in the morning. Their current ordinance is dated 2012 but his permit was applied for in April 2011. The previous ordinance is not available online (broken link). He needs to know what rules were in effect back in April 2011. It seems the greenhorn from the planning? dep't does not realize that on a 6 year old permit, you go by 6 year old rules.

BTW it's FL Keys Elec Co-op, not FPL.

He's a nice guy. Just got off the phone with him again. He owes me a beer at Porky's next time I'm in Marathon. :thumbsup:

In case you've never been to Porky's (MM 50 on US1) it's the place with the sign "No shirt, no shoes, no problem" and they mean it. It's the keys.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Doesn't FEMA sort of have the power to say something like "if you don't do it the way we want you to do it, we are not going to provide any assistance, and certainly not any future assistance should a similar event happen again"?

Big brother can be generous, but wants you to play by his rules kind of thing.
 
Doesn't FEMA sort of have the power to say something like "if you don't do it the way we want you to do it, we are not going to provide any assistance, and certainly not any future assistance should a similar event happen again"?

Big brother can be generous, but wants you to play by his rules kind of thing.


Yes most FEMA flood policies do Not Cover anything below the Rated flood elevation, So if I have a Home on stilts and It has a Storage enclosure under the house with Flood vents and Break Away ways.....and I have Stored stuff inside that area, and in the event of Flooding all that is Lost in that area is my loss. NOT COVERED BY FEMA....

I am still wanting to know whats the thought process keeping the meter above Flood when 98% of the city is at 5-6 feet above grade. Does the Power shut down in those meters when flooded ? I would suspect if I have 14 feet of water the Powers going to have been off a Long time before that. Not a FEMA engineer however I would think the ISLAND would be completely covered from gulf to Atlantic so How much higher could it go once covering island. While storm surge is real making all theses rules for a 1% probability is a Bit of an OVERREACH in my Opinion.

Does anyone make a WATER Proof Meter base or..Weather resistant ? Also would need two Waterproof disconnects. house has 200 amp panel on first floor up on stilts ( set at 18 feet above flood) and a 150 amp panel on second floor at 28 feet above flood on inside. Maybe its a Market that needs to be explored ?

and Yes Mgookin if you are ever in the Keys Porkys & Beer My treat !!! A BIG THANK YOU TO ALL For the INFO Shared here !!

Thanks

Coconut
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yes most FEMA flood policies do Not Cover anything below the Rated flood elevation, So if I have a Home on stilts and It has a Storage enclosure under the house with Flood vents and Break Away ways.....and I have Stored stuff inside that area, and in the event of Flooding all that is Lost in that area is my loss. NOT COVERED BY FEMA....

I am still wanting to know whats the thought process keeping the meter above Flood when 98% of the city is at 5-6 feet above grade. Does the Power shut down in those meters when flooded ? I would suspect if I have 14 feet of water the Powers going to have been off a Long time before that. Not a FEMA engineer however I would think the ISLAND would be completely covered from gulf to Atlantic so How much higher could it go once covering island. While storm surge is real making all theses rules for a 1% probability is a Bit of an OVERREACH in my Opinion.

Does anyone make a WATER Proof Meter base or..Weather resistant ? Also would need two Waterproof disconnects. house has 200 amp panel on first floor up on stilts ( set at 18 feet above flood) and a 150 amp panel on second floor at 28 feet above flood on inside. Maybe its a Market that needs to be explored ?

and Yes Mgookin if you are ever in the Keys Porkys & Beer My treat !!! A BIG THANK YOU TO ALL For the INFO Shared here !!

Thanks

Coconut

First it sort of comes down to whether or not this is homeowner's responsibility or POCO's responsibility when determining who pays for replacing/repairing the meter socket.

But even then FEMA possibly still provides help with public infrastructure and can step in and demand certain things or utility will not be covered next time?

Other end of extremes but we have a local town that operated their own municipal power system, about 10 years ago we had major ice storm two years in a row that took down many overhead lines. That town's expense from this was mostly repairing or replacing overhead service drops. The amount of repairs to the main distribution was pretty minimal. Tree branches falling on service drops was probably the biggest problem. It is hard to require tree clearances from lines and enforce them over the years, especially across peoples back yards where their service drop is located. They now have a policy of all new services will be underground as they don't want to deal with so many drops going down in the future during such events. FEMA probably wasn't involved, but is still an example of trying to future proof it to some extent.
 
Well, Heres the latest as the contact people where out until today ( city officials ) I went in a spoke to them concerning my issue having to move the meter to 14 plus feet up in the air. the city adopted this what appears to be a recommendation to have these meter bases higher then flood....I am told its a FEMA REQUIREMENT from the city ? Also the wording on the MEMO about meter height Adoption ( dated JULY 27, 2015 ) stating NO COs would be given if Meters where not at that Height. So my Plea that
city signed off on TEMP TO PERM on oct 2014 did not Fly......The response was " You should have got your CO Sooner "

The city is Blaming FEMA entirely on this and Local FKEC saying they are not in agreement either.......Despite the statement from FEMA "" Although the NFIP does not regulate equipment owned by utilities ,such as electric meters, FEMA RECOMMENDS that electrical services be DESIGNED ( plans where signed off on design HAD taken Place ) so that all equipment is elevated above flood levels to prevent Flood damage or that MOST of the electrical equipment be placed above flood levels to Minimize flood damage""

So 99% of the house (Most Electrical ) is on stilts above flood a 200 dollar Meter can ? really ? get a alum one and spray it with GRC corrosion coat wait for the 100 year flood ( right ) then rise thing out. I will even BUY IT MY Self.!!!!!

the city gave me the contact person at FEMA to address this....that my next Plan

Just thought I would share the current data

COCONUT
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Throw this at them:
F.S. 553.73 (d) The commission shall further consider the commission’s own interpretations, declaratory statements, appellate decisions, and approved statewide and local technical amendments and shall incorporate such interpretations, statements, decisions, and amendments into the updated Florida Building Code only to the extent that they are needed to modify the foundation codes to accommodate the specific needs of the state. A change made by an institute or standards organization to any standard or criterion that is adopted by reference in the Florida Building Code does not become effective statewide until it has been adopted by the commission. Furthermore, the edition of the Florida Building Code which is in effect on the date of application for any permit authorized by the code governs the permitted work for the life of the permit and any extension granted to the permit.

What the Florida legislature is saying there is that you can't change the rules after a permit is applied for.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Throw this at them:
F.S. 553.73 (d) Furthermore, the edition of the Florida Building Code which is in effect on the date of application for any permit authorized by the code governs the permitted work for the life of the permit and any extension granted to the permit.

Unfortunately, this is NOT a Florida Building Code issue so that statute has no bearing. The FBC, at time of permit application, had little to no provisions for flood resistant construction. This is local ordinance / city code that is being invoked to comply with the community's NFIP & CRS requirements. It is possible the ordinance, as written, compels the builders/owners of buildings that have yet to receive a CO to comply with the ordinance regardless of permit application date.

That being said, I feel it is more likely that the city was simply not enforcing something they were supposed to be all along and it was probably caught by new staff, an ISO audit, or perhaps they just simply decided to start complying.

Every community in Florida gets to decide what and how much electrical equipment is permitted to be located below BFE/DFE. Some only allow electrical equipment as REQUIRED by the code to be located below BFE/DFE. Some permit one switch, one receptacle outlet, one luminaire. Some permit as much electrical equipment you want below the threshold as long as it that equipment is on ne branch circuit and the circuits are GFCI protected. It varies greatly as the ASCE 24 and NFIP rules permit the AHJ to give this allowance.

Its a real bummer...
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Unfortunately, this is NOT a Florida Building Code issue so that statute has no bearing. The FBC, at time of permit application, had little to no provisions for flood resistant construction. This is local ordinance / city code that is being invoked to comply with the community's NFIP & CRS requirements. It is possible the ordinance, as written, compels the builders/owners of buildings that have yet to receive a CO to comply with the ordinance regardless of permit application date.

That being said, I feel it is more likely that the city was simply not enforcing something they were supposed to be all along and it was probably caught by new staff, an ISO audit, or perhaps they just simply decided to start complying.

Every community in Florida gets to decide what and how much electrical equipment is permitted to be located below BFE/DFE. Some only allow electrical equipment as REQUIRED by the code to be located below BFE/DFE. Some permit one switch, one receptacle outlet, one luminaire. Some permit as much electrical equipment you want below the threshold as long as it that equipment is on ne branch circuit and the circuits are GFCI protected. It varies greatly as the ASCE 24 and NFIP rules permit the AHJ to give this allowance.

Its a real bummer...

I'm with you all the way Bryan. Things are different today than yesterday, and yesterday someone was doing their job wrong. It happens all the time. I did that job for decades and saw it all first hand.

But here's the situation. The man applies for a permit and the city issues it. He spends the money and does the work. The city signs off on the work several times during construction. It is clearly the intent of the legislature in giving authority to local jurisdictions to not change the rules after a permit is applied for. There are many reasons for that.

Now the city comes along and says they want it different. The permit holder acted in good faith all along. It becomes a matter of detrimental reliance. The permit holder relied upon the city signing off and now some planner comes along and says we passed an ordinance after you built it and we want it changed. It does not work that way. That meter can was installed prior to the ordinance and the city signed off on it.

The city needs to enforce their new policy going forward on construction which has not yet been built.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I'm with you all the way Bryan. Things are different today than yesterday, and yesterday someone was doing their job wrong. It happens all the time. I did that job for decades and saw it all first hand.

But here's the situation. The man applies for a permit and the city issues it. He spends the money and does the work. The city signs off on the work several times during construction. It is clearly the intent of the legislature in giving authority to local jurisdictions to not change the rules after a permit is applied for. There are many reasons for that.

Now the city comes along and says they want it different. The permit holder acted in good faith all along. It becomes a matter of detrimental reliance. The permit holder relied upon the city signing off and now some planner comes along and says we passed an ordinance after you built it and we want it changed. It does not work that way. That meter can was installed prior to the ordinance and the city signed off on it.

The city needs to enforce their new policy going forward on construction which has not yet been built.
Kind of like the speed traps in some old TV shows where the cop changes the speed limit sign right after the motorist passes by it:cool:
 
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