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Thread: Refer GFCI/AFCI

  1. #11
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    Feb 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by romex jockey View Post
    i keep reading about this 'branch/feeder afci' , which i would gladly purchase a model of say, 30A 2polefeeder (if i could) to serve a 6 cir MLO dedicated panel for all the kitchen reno's i do.

    ~RJ~
    Branch Circuit and Feeder AFCI's are the original AFCI's prior to 2008. They were available in 1p-15 amp and 1p-20 amp. They did not detect series faults. The newer and current version of Combination AFCI's are supposed to detect series and parallel faults.

    I would never want to install an AFCI for a feeder even if larger breakers were to become available. Its hard enough dealing with homeowners and tracking down why a breaker is tripping with a single circuit. If you really want to have an indicator that the Refer AFCI tripped use a 2-p and connect the kitchen lighting to one side.
    Curt Swartz
    Electrical Contractor

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    NE Nebraska
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    Quote Originally Posted by bark View Post
    WaState and I think it's the 2014 code
    2014 added kitchen and laundry to the list of places in 210.12 where AFCI protection is required.

    Quote Originally Posted by sparky1118 View Post
    You just need to arc fault the circuits if you’re not within 6’ of a water source


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My water source is about 50 feet from the house and about 125 feet down a well casing. I do have a system of pipes/tubes that allows that water to flow to my kitchen sink, tubs/showers and other fixtures/appliances.

    Quote Originally Posted by romex jockey View Post
    Being on the 17' cycle 210.12(a), kitchens have assumed a lot of DF's out of sheer contractual economics , add to this the accesibility updates for devices that require resetting or monthly testing

    210.52(b) and ex. gives us the choice of having a refer on the countertop DF, or it's own circuit , which would is required afci, not gfci (assuming the receptacle is in a non-gfci area)

    I'm told the '20 will tighten it all up, whatever appliances are cranky is already an issue for us, a fellow EC has an entire disclaimer written up covering his callbacks

    and i keep reading about this 'branch/feeder afci' , which i would gladly purchase a model of say, 30A 2polefeeder (if i could) to serve a 6 cir MLO dedicated panel for all the kitchen reno's i do

    it would make more sense to have the entire kitchen go down, than the refer alone unnoticed

    jmho

    ~RJ~
    AFCI requirements had little or no change for the average dwelling anyway from 2014 to 2017. GFCI requirements at a dwelling didn't change all that much either - most changes effecting a dwelling were clarification changes and not complete new rules.

    I seldom put a refrigerator on a dedicated circuit. Most don't pull that many amps. As far as noticing other things not working and that may catch your attention before the fridge - my house the fridge is likely to be the first thing noticed that isn't working. Going to microwave something - chances are pretty good you will get it out of a dark fridge before you put it into the microwave.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  3. #13
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    May 2018
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    Jamaica and london
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    546
    Lucky.. in Jamaica, fridge, freezer, microwave, dishwasher..all require their own circuit now... only washing machine for clothes not required on separate circuit...

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamjamma View Post
    Lucky.. in Jamaica, fridge, freezer, microwave, dishwasher..all require their own circuit now... only washing machine for clothes not required on separate circuit...
    What standard do you follow in Jamaica?

  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2018
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    Jamaica and london
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    Well, kinda tricky there.. Colors are old british/canadian, methods are USA/Canadian, british, and Caribbean Common Code, along with local stuff, and no actual code since around 1980...or 85, depending upon whom you talk to... so open to inspector decisions...

    Inspector I have been dealing with the most was willing to go through the old IEC and UK code books I had, and agreed that all the codes need brought up to standards, but gave me his list of expected... Basically, because UK code calls for accessible panels, breaker panel must be on every floor, in a hallway or non locked room for that floor... stuff like that...

    Basically, if it is in an electrical standard that you can proof is more up to date than what he has in his office, he will accept it, otherwise it is old rules... At least two circuits in kitchen for outlets but no more than three outlets per kitchen circuit..lol...

    Country is planning to adopt a copy of the NEC, but arguing over color codes, etc... Expectation is by 2026 will come up with a code that accepts the latest NEC codes with a basic local exception concerning wire colors, and the expectation to use metric codes rather than imperial codes... 7 years ago they finally allowed PVC conduit rather than Aluminum conduit..lol...

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamjamma View Post
    Well, kinda tricky there.. Colors are old british/canadian, methods are USA/Canadian, british, and Caribbean Common Code, along with local stuff, and no actual code since around 1980...or 85, depending upon whom you talk to... so open to inspector decisions...

    Inspector I have been dealing with the most was willing to go through the old IEC and UK code books I had, and agreed that all the codes need brought up to standards, but gave me his list of expected... Basically, because UK code calls for accessible panels, breaker panel must be on every floor, in a hallway or non locked room for that floor... stuff like that...

    Basically, if it is in an electrical standard that you can proof is more up to date than what he has in his office, he will accept it, otherwise it is old rules... At least two circuits in kitchen for outlets but no more than three outlets per kitchen circuit..lol...

    Country is planning to adopt a copy of the NEC, but arguing over color codes, etc... Expectation is by 2026 will come up with a code that accepts the latest NEC codes with a basic local exception concerning wire colors, and the expectation to use metric codes rather than imperial codes... 7 years ago they finally allowed PVC conduit rather than Aluminum conduit..lol...
    That sounds...interesting...to say the least.

    What voltage do you use, or is that all over the map as well?

  7. #17
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    May 2018
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    Jamaica and london
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    120/240 v 50 Hz

  8. #18
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    Mar 2003
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    Vermont
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    Quote Originally Posted by curt swartz View Post
    Branch Circuit and Feeder AFCI's are the original AFCI's prior to 2008. They were available in 1p-15 amp and 1p-20 amp. They did not detect series faults. The newer and current version of Combination AFCI's are supposed to detect series and parallel faults.

    .
    Well that is a long story Curt, the best explanation would be the original nema afci task force chair's explanation (as well as rejected ROP) COMBINATION AFCIs:
    WHAT THEY WILL AND WILL NOT DO


    That said, we can still use the pre-08's , they have assumed supplemental status in 210.12, due to the potential class action suits 7 manufacturers were worrying about (but did not happen)>

    (3) A listed supplemental arc protection circuit breaker
    installed at the origin of the branch circuit in combina‐
    tion with a listed outlet branch-circuit type arc-fault
    circuit interrupter installed at the first outlet box on the
    branch circuit where all of the following conditions are
    met:
    ~RJ~

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