Murry circuit breakers

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curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
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San Jose, CA
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Electrical Contractor
Siemens or Murray are both listed for Murray as it's identical equipment.

Do you have any documentation that shows they are both acceptable? I have never seen a Murray panel list Siemens type Q breakers or a Siemens panel list Murray type MP breakers. While you and I know they are the same breaker with different stickers an inspector could create a stink.

Westinghouse did the same thing when they purchased Challenger. Same breakers and load centers with different stickers but the breakers were not supposed to be used interchangeably. When Eaton purchased Westinghouse they merged the lines with one breaker listing both type BR and type C.
 

Jraef

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Do you have any documentation that shows they are both acceptable? I have never seen a Murray panel list Siemens type Q breakers or a Siemens panel list Murray type MP breakers. While you and I know they are the same breaker with different stickers an inspector could create a stink.

Westinghouse did the same thing when they purchased Challenger. Same breakers and load centers with different stickers but the breakers were not supposed to be used interchangeably. When Eaton purchased Westinghouse they merged the lines with one breaker listing both type BR and type C.
Cal an OFFICIAL Siemens or Murray distributor, they can get you a letter from Siemens that will state this. But be aware, a lot of distributors SAY they are one but are buying through someone else and will not get a call back from a Siemens office. Don't take no for an answer, keep pushing until someone finds it to get you off their back. I used to be the guy at a local Siemens office who sent out those letters, I know for a fact that they exist.
 

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Cal an OFFICIAL Siemens or Murray distributor, they can get you a letter from Siemens that will state this. But be aware, a lot of distributors SAY they are one but are buying through someone else and will not get a call back from a Siemens office. Don't take no for an answer, keep pushing until someone finds it to get you off their back. I used to be the guy at a local Siemens office who sent out those letters, I know for a fact that they exist.

I remember you mentioning this in the past. I used to use a lot Siemens but Square D gave me better contract pricing so not using Siemens much now. I'll ask my Siemens distributor about the letter sometime.

If Siemens intends on us being able to interchange the breakers I don't get why they don't print both types MP & Q on all the breakers.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Do you have any documentation that shows they are both acceptable? I have never seen a Murray panel list Siemens type Q breakers or a Siemens panel list Murray type MP breakers. While you and I know they are the same breaker with different stickers an inspector could create a stink.

I've never seen official documentation but the UL "E" number is the same on both breakers, so that's good enough for me.
 

Little Bill

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I put in a Murray panel a few months back and it said right on the sheet attached to the panel to only use breakers mfg by "Siemens" .

Also I had to buy both some Murray & Siemens breakers and they both had the same numbers.
 

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
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Electrical Contractor
Also I had to buy both some Murray & Siemens breakers and they both had the same numbers.

Murray panels show to use "Murray Type MP Breakers. Siemens panels show to use "Siemens Type Q Breakers"
The Murray and Siemens breakers are the same except for the stickers but they are not the same part number.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Siemens circuit breakers are listed for use in Murray panelboards manufactured after October 2014. The panelboard label and installation instructions will list the type of Murray and Siemens breakers that are suitable for use in said panelbaord.

A letter confirming the same can be obtained from:

Ken Rempe, P.E.
Siemens Industry, Inc.
Energy Management Division
Low Voltage and Products
5400 Triangle Parkway
Norcross, GA 30092
Tel.: +1 (770) 326-506
ken.rempe@siemens.com
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
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San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
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Electrical Engineer
Siemens circuit breakers are listed for use in Murray panelboards manufactured after October 2014. The panelboard label and installation instructions will list the type of Murray and Siemens breakers that are suitable for use in said panelbaord.

A letter confirming the same can be obtained from:

Ken Rempe, P.E.
Siemens Industry, Inc.
Energy Management Division
Low Voltage and Products
5400 Triangle Parkway
Norcross, GA 30092
Tel.: +1 (770) 326-506
ken.rempe@siemens.com
I was sending that letter out up until 2006, so I know it's not just after 2104. IIRC the letter was actually dated 1996 or something like that. It was released after Siemens had bought Murray in an attempt to satisfy AHJ requests for proof that they were one and the same.

Where is came up more often than not was when people were retrofitting older Murray panels that pre-dated Murray being bought out by Siemens in 1992. But even before then, the Murray breakers were always brand-labeled ITE breakers, so when Siemens had bought ITE from Goulds in 1983, they inherited that contract, then later just bought Murray from Cooper outright.

The reason they couldn't just use the same part numbers is because of this history. At one point the companies, AND their UL listing files, were separate, even though the parts were made by the same company, and UL listings are based on published part numbers. What I think likely changed in 2014 was that Siemens merged the UL files into one, that's why they started being able to list both part numbers on the panels.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Right I never said they did. Homelike is an example. But that is my point that it would be great if the industry would get its head out of its @$# and have standardized 1" breakers.

The Type CL breaker is standardized in that it's UL listed for use in panels of different manufacturers. On the other hand, why would a manufacturer go to the trouble of having its panels and breakers evaluated for competitive products, when that would undercut their own sales?

For me, having four companies that offer 1" products is good enough. That's not counting the proprietary designs either.
 

norcal

Senior Member
Prior to Siemens buying Murray, it had been known as Crouse-Hinds, they (C-H) had labeled their loadcenters to accept I-T-E QP breakers, in addition a couple of other makes, besides Crouse-Hinds.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Murray panels show to use "Murray Type MP Breakers. Siemens panels show to use "Siemens Type Q Breakers"
The Murray and Siemens breakers are the same except for the stickers but they are not the same part number.

That's not what this panel label said. It may be hard to see from these pics but it's showing both Siemens & Murray numbers
In the section headed "short circuit current rating" is where it says to only use breakers mfg by Siemens or the warranty would be voided.




 
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