what am i missing with generator inlet label?

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bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
i just got a correction to put a LABEL on a stinkin gen set input recept. are you kidding me? bonded or floating neutral system? does it MATTER? The recept has FOUR wires in it no matter what so who the hell cares? i think this is another PANT LOAD!

2014 NEC 702 .7 -(C)

Where a power inlet is used for a temporary connection to a portable generator, a warning sign shall be placed near the inlet to indicate the type of derived system that the system is capable of based on the wiring of the transfer equipment. The sign shall display one of the following warnings: WARNING FOR CONNECTION OF A SEPARATELY DERIVED (BONDED NEUTRAL) SYSTEM ONLY or WARNING FOR CONNECTION OF A NONSEPARATELY DERIVED (FLOATING NEUTRAL) SYSTEM ONLY

All i see this is another way for the state to get more money out of me, for Trip Fees. No matter what the system is an Interlock is going to keep from backfeeding either one of them. iF they are worried about somebody not knowing if they are feeding a sub or a main panel, then why don't they require the label to say THAT instead of this BS about bonded or floating Ns?

RANTING!!!:rant::rant::rant:
 
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dkidd

Senior Member
Location
here
Occupation
PE
From the ROP:

Substantiation: The portable generators are not normally part of an electrical
inspection, nor are they subject to inspection when an owner purchases a new
one. Depending on what type of transfer equipment is installed; this can lead to
dangerous situations such as paralleling grounded currents on both the
equipment grounding conductor and the grounded conductor or to cases were
the system does not benefit from a system bonding conductor or one that acts
as such. The requirement would give indication to the type required to achieve
electrical safety.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
From the ROP:

Substantiation: The portable generators are not normally part of an electrical
inspection, nor are they subject to inspection when an owner purchases a new
one. Depending on what type of transfer equipment is installed; this can lead to
dangerous situations such as paralleling grounded currents on both the
equipment grounding conductor and the grounded conductor or to cases were
the system does not benefit from a system bonding conductor or one that acts
as such. The requirement would give indication to the type required to achieve
electrical safety.
Which would mean absolutely nothing to the HO that purchases a generator the day of, before, or after he needs it.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Which would mean absolutely nothing to the HO that purchases a generator the day of, before, or after he needs it.
Exactly. There are a few other required markings here and there in the code that only mean something to installers and inspectors, but absolutely nothing to the users - which is who we are supposed to be protecting with the code.

Though it may also be ignored a label that says "consult a qualified electrician" has more meaning to the end user in most cases.
 

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
so here is what the inspector just told me: It depends on the generator NOT the house wiring!!! so now i have to have my customer, who is not an electrician, obviously, try to tell me if his Welder/Generator has a bonded or floating neutral!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this sign depends 100% on the generator and so WHAT IF THEY GUY HASN'T BOUGHT ONE YET, THEN I CAN'T INSTALL IT BECAUSE I CAN'T PRINT THE SIGN! he also wants KW and ampacity of the wires. he couldnt tell me which for ampacity: the apacity of the wires to the outlet (50A) or the amps produced by the welder at 10,000W. so he ended up just sayingdo the math on the 10K. this is ridiculous, this customer is 30 miles out of town barely speaks english, and i have a million other things to do. then i get to tell this Korean guy to pay me another $25 for this stupid sign. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!:thumbsdown:
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
so here is what the inspector just told me: It depends on the generator NOT the house wiring!!!
That appears to contradict your quoted NEC article
2014 NEC 702 .7 -(C)
Where a power inlet is used for a temporary connection to a portable generator, a warning sign shall be placed near the inlet to indicate the type of derived system that the system is capable of based on the wiring of the transfer equipment.



 

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
it SURE DOES charlie, and so does this: http://www.jade1.com/jadecc/courses/UNIVERSAL/NEC05.php?imDif=802.0

and ps. i am up here in mount vernon, L&I gave me the correction. the label i see also has no volts or amps or anything else on it. is not phenolic either, but he never said anything so i am sitting here wondering what color it has to be.

the link i gave you said that the gen has to match the TRANSFER SWITCH. well, obviously, with an inlet recept, i am going to a Breaker with a std interlock over it. so the N is not switched off at all, so i also found out this welder/generator has a Bonded N. so this seems to be a violation of the "transfer switch" i am so f'd up by this my brain is swirling!

any ideas on where i can get this label at? and so what now? put on a label that LIES? will be kind of TOUGH since the Lincoln factory tech told me it says RIGHT ON THE FRONT that the N is BONDED!
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Short summary:
How the inlet and transfer switch need to be wired depends on the generator configuration (bonded or unbounded neutral).
Once the inlet is wired, that determines what configuration generator must be used. Note that it may be easier to change the configuration of the generator later than to change the configuration of the wiring.
Also, the inexpensive transfer arrangement of interlocked breakers can only accept a generator with unbonded neutral.
A three pole transfer switch, OTOH, can be converted to two pole just by adding a jumper.
 

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
that's what i though.....SO BASICALLY what you are saying is for me to remove the bonding jumper? sounds like thats the ONLY thing i can do. wonder how lincoln feels about that violating their warranty!
 

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
Std 2 pole breaker is called out in the owners manual for this machine here: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/servicenavigator-public/lincoln3/im10017.pdf

at page A-8. shows nothing to disconnect the N. tech told me it would violate warranty. however still have to talk to Lincoln. i did screw up putting a 50A bkr in instead of the 40A called out. 50A recept, so....thats what i get for thinkin.


from the 702.7c: 702.7(C) Optional Standby Systems. Signs. Power Inlet.

Click to Enlarge; Mouse Over to Zoom
A warning sign is required at the power inlet temporary connection to a portable generator.

A sign is now required at a power inlet used to connect a portable generator to a premises wiring system. The sign must say what type of generator will be connected to the power inlet based on the wiring in the transfer switch.

Portable generators can be one of two types: (1) A separately derived system with the neutral bonded to the frame of the generator. (2) A non-separately derived system where the neutral conductor is not bonded to the frame of the generator.

When the neutral is bonded to the frame of the generator the sign must say, WARNING: FOR CONNECTION OF A SEPARATELY DERIVED (BONDED NEUTRAL) SYSTEM ONLY.

When the neutral is not bonded to the frame of the generator the sign must say, WARNING: FOR CONNECTION OF A NON-SEPARATELY DERIVED (FLOATING NEUTRAL) SYSTEM ONLY.

A transfer switch for a separately derived system where the neutral from the generator is bonded to the frame of the generator has a separate pole for the neutral conductor and transfers the neutral from the generator to the premises wiring system. A transfer switch for a non-separately derived type of generator does not transfer the neutral to the premises wiring system. The neutral connection from the utility is used when the generator is supplying power to the transfer switch.

The type of generator must match the type of transfer switch. If, for example, the generator has the neutral bonded to the generator frame making it a separately derived system type of generator, the transfer switch must disconnect the neutral from the utility and reconnect the neutral from the generator. If there is a mismatch, and the grounded conductor from the utility remains connected to the generator neutral, parallel ground currents will circulate on the premises wiring system.



on phone. he's saying Wont void warranty. however, now we get into the problem of Not following mfgrs instructions!
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
While the code does not require the use of a listed generator for back up power, the UL standard for 15kW and smaller portable generators requires the generator to have a neutral to frame bond and the instructions provided with a listed generator require the use of a transfer switch that switches the neutral where the generator is used to supply power to a building.
 

Pharon

Senior Member
Location
MA
While the code does not require the use of a listed generator for back up power, the UL standard for 15kW and smaller portable generators requires the generator to have a neutral to frame bond and the instructions provided with a listed generator require the use of a transfer switch that switches the neutral where the generator is used to supply power to a building.

Great but what about the scenario where you have a mechanical interlock panel cover and not a transfer switch?

Not sure why UL only allows one but not the other, and if they had to choose - maybe they should've chosen to have the neutral and ground separated at the generator, which is probably more common in the residential < 15kW range.

Not that I think it really matters. Ultimately, the situation is temporary and isolated. I can't think offhand how this would be a major safety issue either way.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
I'll quote code Mike Holt
"code is code
We don't like the rules we don't agree with if they cost us time and money".
My local wholesale houses has the required labels in stock.
 
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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Great but what about the scenario where you have a mechanical interlock panel cover and not a transfer switch?

Not sure why UL only allows one but not the other, and if they had to choose - maybe they should've chosen to have the neutral and ground separated at the generator, which is probably more common in the residential < 15kW range.

Not that I think it really matters. Ultimately, the situation is temporary and isolated. I can't think offhand how this would be a major safety issue either way.
The standard applies to portable generators and they feel that cord and plug connected equipment needs a bonding path.

If you buy a small generator listed for permanent installation and not portable use it will most likely not have the frame to neutral bond.
 

Pharon

Senior Member
Location
MA
The standard applies to portable generators and they feel that cord and plug connected equipment needs a bonding path.

If you buy a small generator listed for permanent installation and not portable use it will most likely not have the frame to neutral bond.

I have a 10kW portable gen for my home and I could've sworn when I checked the schematics it showed a separated neutral and ground. But now you have me wondering and I will check again.
 

cpinetree

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
List of portable generators

List of portable generators

http://www.generlink.com/CompatibleGenerator.pdf

The above link is to a list of portable generators and whether or not the neutral floats or is bonded. It was compiled for our local POCO that installs a "Generlink" http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm behind the meter to transfer power from the portable genny to the house.

It is in no way a complete list of every portable generator, but it usually saves me time trying to track down the right info.
 
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