Decora switch for a disposal

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Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
marinesgt0411 said:
Can not help it that is the way the lighted decora switch is if the switch is lit up it is off and when you turn the switch on it is no longer lit

And then it nolonger removes all voltage from the unit so is now not a disconnect
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Jim W in Tampa said:
What exactly is a unit switch.Is the one on the wall not a switch for the unit ?Or does it need to be part of the disposal ?

part of 422.34
422.34 Unit Switch(es) as Disconnecting Means.
A unit switch(es) with a marked-off position that is a part of an appliance.......
 

marinesgt0411

Senior Member
Jim W in Tampa said:
Only if it has this light in series.Simple toggle switches remove voltage.

It is a lighted switch THE LIGHT IS IN THE SWITCH if the light is on the switch is open and no voltage is going down the switch leg any more then any other switch that is open has any voltage going down the switch leg.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
iwire said:
...

That being the case we must apply the rules of 422.32
422.32 Disconnecting Means for Motor-Driven Appliance.

If a switch or circuit breaker serves as the disconnecting means for a permanently connected motor-driven appliance of more than 1/8 hp, it shall be located within sight from the motor controller and shall comply with Part IX of Article 430.

Exception: If a motor-driven appliance of more than 1/8 hp is provided with a unit switch that complies with 422.34(A), (B), (C), or (D), the switch or circuit breaker serving as the other disconnecting means shall be permitted to be out of sight from the motor controller.
...
Will someone please tell me what the motor controller looks like for a disposal? I can't remember ever seeing one!
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
Is there a neutral connection on that switch? If not, how is the circuit being completed to light that light (I don't think you're allowed to use the grounding wire as an indicator light pathway)? Usually on this type, the light goes in series with the load so a small current (whatever the light needs) is going through that motor winding. That will give you a nice zap when you go to work on it. When the switch is on, that switch is in parallel with the light and the load steals all the current since the light is effectively shorted out.

This type of switch is ideal for lights. The room is dark, so you can easily find the switch. But please, don't use that kind as a disconnect!
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Smart $ said:
Will someone please tell me what the motor controller looks like for a disposal? I can't remember ever seeing one!

LOL, I am pretty sure you have seen one. :)

light-switch.jpg


Yes a 15 amp single pole switch if intended to stop and start a motor is a motor controller.

VII. Motor Controllers
430.81 General.

Part VII is intended to require suitable controllers for all motors.

(A) Definition. For the definition of Controller, see Article 100. For the purpose of this article, a controller is any switch or device that is normally used to start and stop a motor by making and breaking the motor circuit current.

Article 100
Controller. A device or group of devices that serves to govern, in some predetermined manner, the electric power delivered to the apparatus to which it is connected.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
marinesgt0411 said:
It is a lighted switch THE LIGHT IS IN THE SWITCH if the light is on the switch is open and no voltage is going down the switch leg any more then any other switch that is open has any voltage going down the switch leg.

Your missing something.Draw out your circuit with switch ,light,motor.Now look at how the light works in the OFF position.If you remove the load you have no light.Also look at what you now have if the motor kicked the overload switch and the switch light is now OFF in either position. Please dont use them for a disconnect.
 

Dave58er

Senior Member
Location
Dearborn, MI
Jim W in Tampa said:
With all the lockouts being required it seems like its time for panel doors to have a cheap lock already in them.But then inspectors would need to find something else to pick on.The reinspect charges make them plenty.

Every panel I've installed outside of a couple of residential panels has had a lock on the panel door. But I dont think we're allowed to use it for lockout since there are no provisions for tagout.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Panel cover locks are never suitable for use a lockout devices. The circuit breaker that serves the equipment being worked on must be individually locked out to comply with safe work rules.
Don
 

DaveBowden

Senior Member
Location
St Petersburg FL
Iwire can you please give me an example of a permanently connected appliance that would fall under the provisions of 422.31(B) and be rated in hp and not be a motor? I can't think of any and I'm sure there are some.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
iwire said:
LOL, I am pretty sure you have seen one. :)

light-switch.jpg


Yes a 15 amp single pole switch if intended to stop and start a motor is a motor controller.
Exactly my point... and therein lies the dilemma. If the countertop switch IS the controller, the disconnecting means of 422.32 is in addition to it.

iwire said:
Jim W in Tampa said:
So just apply 422.31b and give him a breaker lock,problem solved
Not if the disposal in more than [1/8] HP.

If it is we have to also apply 422.32
The disconnecting switch or circuit breaker of 422.32 requires it to be within sight from the controller, not the motor. This implies it is ahead of the controller. Additionally, 422.32 states the disconnecting means shall comply with Part IX of Article 430. Subpart 430.102 requires a disconnect for BOTH the controller and the motor.

iwire said:
Put the decora back and install another switch under the sink that is an indicating type.
Then the decora switch is still the controller and the under the sink switch is the motor disconnect. Where's the 430.102(A) disconnect for the controller (within sight from the controller)?

Are you certain 422.32 applies?
 

Mike03a3

Senior Member
Location
Virginia
marinesgt0411 said:
If you want to keep it a decora switch just get a lighted decora switch light on its off light off its on to me thats indicating.

Perhaps, but it doesn't indicate much - they make Decora switches both ways: Switch on / light on and Switch on / light off.

Not very helpful as an indicator.

<edited to correct yet another spelling error>
 
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Dave58er

Senior Member
Location
Dearborn, MI
don_resqcapt19 said:
Panel cover locks are never suitable for use a lockout devices. The circuit breaker that serves the equipment being worked on must be individually locked out to comply with safe work rules.
Don

So if I Lockout/Tagout the switchboard or disconnect feeding the panel I'm working out of that is not following safe work rules?

What if I use a lockout device designed to lockout the main of the panel I'm working in?

Again I will stand by my original statement that panel locks are not acceptable because they are without a tagout provision.

Anyone who has seen these panel locks knows they are all keyed alike and there is nothing to prevent someone from unlocking them. With out a tag they have no way of knowing why that breaker is off.

I've seen many maintenence people open a (locked) panel and turn on breakers at random.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Dave58er said:
So if I Lockout/Tagout the switchboard or disconnect feeding the panel I'm working out of that is not following safe work rules?

What if I use a lockout device designed to lockout the main of the panel I'm working in?

Again I will stand by my original statement that panel locks are not acceptable because they are without a tagout provision.

Anyone who has seen these panel locks knows they are all keyed alike and there is nothing to prevent someone from unlocking them. With out a tag they have no way of knowing why that breaker is off.

I've seen many maintenence people open a (locked) panel and turn on breakers at random.

True in commercial/industrial but i rather dought it would be a problem in residential.And i had an inspector say he would except it.So what number does it violate ?
 

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
Jim, the inspector was wrong and making up his own code. There is no exception for Residential. I still say, do away with the lock out and install a disconect.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Cavie said:
Jim, the inspector was wrong and making up his own code. There is no exception for Residential. I still say, do away with the lock out and install a disconect.

Rule #1 the inspector is never wrong
Rule # 2 if the inspector is wrong ,reread rule #1

I am rethinking the breaker lock on this decora switch,still waiting for exsplanation on what 422.31b had in mind about horse power if it didnt mean motors.
 
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