holes in floor joists 2" apart

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Tom227

Member
Hello,
I am an electrician in PA, and I just failed an inspection because I drilled my holes in the floor joists (residential home) less than 2" apart, from edge to edge. Is this in the NEC? What article? This is a big problem because it is the holes for all my homeruns, and the run, almost, the whole length of the house. So not only will I have to take the wires out of the panel and remove them from the floor joists, he also wants the joists replaced. The is a big problem. This inspector is known for being an unreasonable guy and I couldent talk him out of his decision either. Please let me know if there is any way that I can fight him on this.
 

Tom227

Member
That is what I thought too, I don't know where this guy gets his information, I think he just likes to give people a hard time. He even failed me because I stapled my romex on its side, not flat against the wood. The problem in this area is that we have one inspector for everything, he inspects framing, plumbing, electrical, foundation, etc. and they usually don't know much about any of the trades, we don't have licensing here. But, I don't want to get off topic, I need to be able to fight this guy.
 

jeff43222

Senior Member
peter d said:
Generally speaking, as long as the holes are drilled in the middle 1/3 of the joist, there should be no problem.

What if someone decided to put a long line of wholes in that middle 1/3 of the joist? I suppose the structural integrity of the joist would be compromised.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Tom227 said:
He even failed me because I stapled my romex on its side, not flat against the wood.

Well, that is a legitimate violation. See 334.30

But without seeing the job and by what you describe, it sounds like he is giving you a hard time.
 

jeff43222

Senior Member
Tom227 said:
That is what I thought too, I don't know where this guy gets his information, I think he just likes to give people a hard time. He even failed me because I stapled my romex on its side, not flat against the wood.

I don't have my code book in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure that Article 334 prohibits stapling NM on its side. I'm almost certain I've seen that somewhere.

Tom227 said:
The problem in this area is that we have one inspector for everything, he inspects framing, plumbing, electrical, foundation, etc. and they usually don't know much about any of the trades, we don't have licensing here. But, I don't want to get off topic, I need to be able to fight this guy.

All you can do is ask him for a code reference. If they are going to red-tag something, they have to be able to back it up with more than "cuz I said so" or the ever-popular "I am the AHJ." If he can't provide a code reference (NEC or whatever building-related codes are the law in your area), then go to his supervisor. If he has no supervisor (e.g., he's some kind of elected building enforcement official) or his supervisor doesn't want to get involved, your next step is to hire a lawyer.
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
This has nothing to do with the NEC. If it were an NEC issue, why would he want the joists replaced? This is a structural issue...and your inspector is correct. You are pretty much screwed. See Section 502.8.1 of the IRC.
 

Tom227

Member
I checked article 334.30 it does say that NM cable can not be stapled on its side. I didn't know that was a violation. I have been wiring houses in this area for 2 years now and this is the first time I got flagged for it. I will ask ask him where he found the violation, and the inspectors here are private companies, hired by the township, and he is the owner. I hope it doesn't have to go to lawyers.
 

Tom227

Member
This has nothing to do with the NEC. If it were an NEC issue, why would he want the joists replaced? This is a structural issue...and your inspector is correct. You are pretty much screwed. See Section 502.8.1 of the IRC.


I don't have an IRC book, but I will purchase one tomarrow, If I can't win on this one it is going to cost me a fortune. I did three houses in this area this way. I guess this is the downside of owning your own business.
 

inspector23

Senior Member
Location
Temecula, CA
I am guessing there is more to this than what has been explained in this forum.

Since Tom227 either was not aware edge stapling was a violation or he was complaining the inspector cited him for the violation, it could be construed that the inspector is at least somewhat following code references and not . "cuz I said so" or the ever-popular "I am the AHJ."

Since the inspector has the additional responsibilities of other trade inspections, it is also possible the inspector is following whatever building code references enforced in your jurisdiction.

I again think there must be more to this issue if the inspector deems the holes in question have compromised the integrity of the supports to such a degree to call for their replacement.

Is this your initial contact with this inspector? Have you worked in the area before? Is there bad blood between you and him from previous experiences?

Were your doughnuts stale? :D
 

inspector23

Senior Member
Location
Temecula, CA
I was typing my reply and when I posted it I noticed several posts had been added since I began my comments. sorry for the timeline delay.

Since the inspector is an independent hired by the municipality, my experience tells me he must be confident of his corrections - and has the paper trail to enforce it.

Sometimes the tutition for the school of experience seems high.........
 

Tom227

Member
no there is no bad blood here, I did one house in his area about 8 months ago. I had violations on that one too, but nothing that was this major so we never got into it. The guy is just extremley particualar and he treats everyone the same way. One that house he made the framers replace two major supporting beams, and it held the job up for 2 months. (but that was no fault of mine) this inspector has been kicked out of four townships in this area for being too difficult on contractors.
 

inspector23

Senior Member
Location
Temecula, CA
If you are indeed held responsible for replacing the members in question, perhaps you could have a licensed structural engineer provide a fix for the materials involved that would not require removing the damaged ones and replacing them with new ones.

No, the engineer might not be cheap, but it might be worth exploring to see if all the costs involved would be cost beneficial for you as an alternative to replacing everything.

In cases I have experienced, the AHJ will accept a licensed, approved engineer report that is wet signed ( not a fax or a copy) so long as it initially details the existing problem and provides clear, concise instructions for re-establishing the structural integrity.

just a thought .........
 
How big were the holes you drilled and were they 2 inches center to center or edge to edge? The general rule on drilling TJI's, LVL's, and PSL's is middle third in both length and width. If there are two or more holes, they are to be 2 times the diameter of the largest hole apart. Maximum hole for an 8 inch or larger depth is 2 inches. This data is from trusjoist http://www.trusjoist.com/PDFFiles/2015.pdf. I don't know what the rules are for traditional lumber, but i would think they are similar. It seems ridiculous that he says you have to replace the joists, he sounds unreasonable, then again maybe you drilled 4 inch holes in a 2X6 :wink: . Perhaps you can hire an engineer to look at the situation and give it an ok?
 

Tom227

Member
I am going to meet with the inspector on wednesday to see if he might have an alternative for replacing the beams. The engineer idea crossed my mind, but I need him to come soon because the builder doesn't want to wait very long for a fix.

"Sometimes the tutition for the school of experience seems high........."

This is a lesson that I am learning very quickly, you think you know everything that you need to know, then you get out on your own and a whole new world is introduced to you.
 

inspector23

Senior Member
Location
Temecula, CA
(this is taken from your post) "This is a lesson that I am learning very quickly, you think you know everything that you need to know, then you get out on your own and a whole new world is introduced to you."


I learned a while back that "everything you need to know" is that you will never know everything you need to know so you keep digging, keep sharing your experiences, and keep reading - your education never stops in this trade - that's why I love it.....
 

Tom227

Member
Thank you guys for your feedback, at least I know he didn't make the code up (but I will still check the IRC) I will meet with him on Wed. and hopefully we can come to a compromise. I have learned a lesson from this situation, I am going to have to stay on my toes, if want to remain in business.
It's past 12:00PM and I think I should go to bed, good night guys,
and thanks again.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I would think sistering the joists would be more than adequate, but only after exhausting all possibilities that the inspector is wrong.

However, having seen neither details nor pictures of the penetrations, we can't really call the inspector incorrect. He may be spot-on.
 
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