Test for new hires?

Status
Not open for further replies.

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Minuteman said:
Don, I was called this week about a J-man I let go back in December.

Other EC: "What can you tell me about Mr. Jake Leg?"

Me: "Jake is not eligible for rehire."

Other EC: "Thank you very much."
If asked, my former employer would likely say I am not eligible for re-hire.

In the most cheerful sunday-school language I can muster, I'll just say it's because they are not good people, not because I did anything wrong.

In fact, that relationship has probably earned me points with my new employer, it's not always a deficit. :D
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
As far as testing goes, I'd go Minuteman's route and give a simple test that anyone should pass 100% who has the experience. Simple, day-to-day task items, no tricky questions, no code questions. Some people just do not test well and are excellent hands.

One fellow I'm thinking of was born, raised, and apprenticed in South Africa, where they have intensive hands-on training. Code training is actually a next-level skill that some don't even choose to persue. He underwent extensive motor, conduit, and wiring training and passed his "hands-on JW exam" with over 90%, which was a feat that the 3-day exam didn't see too often.

He came to the USA, worked commercial in Denver for a time, and then found work with my former employer in Fort Collins. They had a test they'd cooked up which wasn't horribly tricky, but contained a couple tricky questions.

Interestingly, with the extensive hands-on background he had, he hadn't been faced with much theory. He could troubleshoot extensively difficult appliances visually, but did not know much residential code. I found him to be one of the best electricians at that shop, but he only scored probably 50% on that test, from what I could see.

He recently tested and passed his Master's Exam, with a lot of studying and a little tutoring. :cool:
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
georgestolz said:
If asked, my former employer would likely say I am not eligible for re-hire. :D


You never can tell George. I was fired once over an argument with a project manager. Six weeks later the project manager was fired and they called to ask if I wanted my job back. Even offered a small raise. Companies don't hold a grudge for people that make them money as long as you would think

By the way I didn't go back. I thought they were a little on the fickle side.
 

bkludecke

Senior Member
Location
Big Bear Lake, CA
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The 1st thing I want to see is a clean driving record - it speaks volumns about some very basic skills and values. I ask about experience and I should check references more often than I actually do. It amazes me how full of crap some people can be. I've been thinking lately about a short quiz that would at least let me know if an applicant knows the very basic stuff. Also basic english/grammer and penmanship seems to be lacking in alot of young people these days. Then there is the work ethic...GOD!! Everyone I've hired lately says they want the overtime..LIARS!!! They want 40 hours and no more...AURGH!!
 

e57

Senior Member
I've told this story before - but will tell it again in a trunkated version.

I worked for a guy for a while who tested every applicant. He had a 20 question or so test ranging from simple to more difficult questions - but nothing eveveryone shouldn't know already. And he asked if you could bend conduit, and he had a piece of plywood with boxes mounted on the wall in the shop and everything you might and might not need to put a piece between them in any direction you like with a few simple bends.

I took the test when I was hired - it took ~ten minuites and bent my pipe and continued to the interveiw..... I remember there was a question about color codes and it listed BOY, BRB, ect in variuos incarnations. I circled the whole question and wrote in that the code did not mandate colors except white and green.... He was impressed...

So after about a year of working there I came into the office to drop of paperwork, and there was a guy sitting there taking the test. I gave him a few words of encouragement - "Don't worry he even made his brother who works for the company take that too..." And went to see the boss.... The boss takes me into his office and says. "This is gonna be great - this guy says he wants $35 an hour" Top pay for a guy in this area... So he tells me to stay in his office, and gets the test back from him and sets the guy up with the pipe test in the shop. (You could do this in less than a single stick - two off-sets two 90's your done...) The boss comes back, opens up a cabinet and little did I know he had a monitor in there for cameras around the building. (Not that they were hidden - I just didn't notice them...)

So we sat there trying to contain the laughter as this guy botched 3 sticks horribly, then scrapped them and stuffed them under the bosses truck, then dipped into his conduit carrier for some more. Then he dropped it all and walked right out the door.... Then my boss says - "Well there goes one I don't have to fire down the line..." Further review of his heavily erased and corrected test unvieled he botched that too...

Bottom line is people are conditioned to BS and glad hand people through job interviews - looking for top pay for things they have little understanding of.... When all an employer really wants is some honesty and integrity. I think a simple test is an easy way to get some. (If not some good laughs at people you should hire in the first place...)
 
Last edited:

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
Minuteman said:
Don, I was called this week about a J-man I let go back in December.

Other EC: "What can you tell me about Mr. Jake Leg?"

Me: "Jake is not eligible for rehire."

Other EC: "Thank you very much."

I'm not a lawyer, so this isn't legal advice, but that might be considered sufficiently negative that your former employee could possibly sue.

As this article points out, the safest approach is to provide dates of employment only when asked for a reference.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
tallgirl said:
I'm not a lawyer, so this isn't legal advice, but that might be considered sufficiently negative that your former employee could possibly sue.

You can get sued for blowing your nose, it seems as though a person or business can get sued for anything.

I believe, in general, employees have fewer resources than employers, so chances are in terms of ECs and employees, there is little real chance for a former or future employer to get sued, IMO.

People with the best lawyers win, this is a generally accepted rule of thumb as far as I know. People with money typically afford better lawyers than people without money.

People looking for a job are generally in the dark as far as what's said between employers. Chances are, there is a law on the books that says only dates of hire/termination and eligibility for rehire can be discussed. In reality, if the two ECs are friendly, and somebody wasn't pulling their weight, then somebody's not getting a job.

JMO,
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
I have also been working on a 10 question test for about 2 months. I want a quick test applicants can take when our charming office girl is the only one at the office. I dont need people hanging around for an hour trying to complete a 50 question test. So far i have gotten nowhere. After 20 years of testing,interviewing and background checking, i have learned you never know until you put someone in the field. I`m often suprised.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
georgestolz said:
You can get sued for blowing your nose, it seems as though a person or business can get sued for anything.

I believe, in general, employees have fewer resources than employers, so chances are in terms of ECs and employees, there is little real chance for a former or future employer to get sued, IMO.

It happens with surprising regularity. Maybe not in the electrical business, but in the geek business employers do get sued. A lot.

People with the best lawyers win, this is a generally accepted rule of thumb as far as I know. People with money typically afford better lawyers than people without money.

Sometimes lawsuits aren't about the offense, but about making it painful to commit the offense ever again. And sometimes the economics makes what looks like a bad idea into a potentially profitable one. If I have a 20% chance of winning a $1M lawsuit and it will cost me $100K to pursue it, I'm going to pursue it.

People looking for a job are generally in the dark as far as what's said between employers. Chances are, there is a law on the books that says only dates of hire/termination and eligibility for rehire can be discussed. In reality, if the two ECs are friendly, and somebody wasn't pulling their weight, then somebody's not getting a job.

JMO,

I agree with you that a lot of former employees are generally clueless, but I wouldn't suggest anyone take that chance. If the employee was a slacker that no one liked, they'll never hear what's being said behind their back. But it only takes one person who thinks ex-employee got a raw deal to keep that employee informed. I had a manager that I think was trying to get me blacklisted within the company and I was constantly getting feedback about what he was telling others -- both inside and outside the company.
 

Shockedby277v

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
Rockyd said:
If they are looking for a job, if they have a face full of metal, (nose rings, etc) you 'll not work for me.

Hey now :) I have facial piercings! I feel I have been more than average to my employer. Honestly, I think their more than happy with me. As for it being a hazard, their taken out when needed. I also have had to shave when needed. No big deal. We also have a apprentice that has half his body tattooed and has numerous piercings to boot. He is one of the best pipe runners we have, not to mention a hard worker. If you want to discriminate against someone in that manner, that's your loss. Maybe your competition will gain ground by hiring someone with a face full of metal.



Rockyd said:
Two, if they're looking for a job, do they look like an electrician, or potential to be?

And what might an electrician look like?? I have seen many... short,tall,fat skinny,long hair, bald you name it. I didn't know there was a certain look. Maybe some clarification would help. That way I would be able to spot an electrician in a crowd.
 

bkludecke

Senior Member
Location
Big Bear Lake, CA
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Shockedby277v said:
Hey now :) I have facial piercings! I feel I have been more than average to my employer. Honestly, I think their more than happy with me. As for it being a hazard, their taken out when needed. I also have had to shave when needed. No big deal. We also have a apprentice that has half his body tattooed and has numerous piercings to boot. He is one of the best pipe runners we have, not to mention a hard worker. If you want to discriminate against someone in that manner, that's your loss. Maybe your competition will gain ground by hiring someone with a face full of metal.
We do custom residential and alot of residential service work.

And what might an electrician look like?? I have seen many... short,tall,fat skinny,long hair, bald you name it. I didn't know there was a certain look. Maybe some clarification would help. That way I would be able to spot an electrician in a crowd.
I agree that there is no electrician "look" but there are turn-offs that will hold a person back. We do custom residential new work and service work. There is no way I'm going to hire a "walking freak show" and hope my customers are going to be cool with it. You need to be neat, clean, and reasonably coservative looking to work here. I'm sure I miss out on some talent but I'm just as sure that a tatooed, pierced "free-spirit" misses out on alot of opportunity.
 
Last edited:

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
bkludecke said:
I agree that there is no electrician "look" but there are turn-offs that will hold a person back. We do custom residential new work and service work. There is no way I'm going to hire a "walking freak show" and hope my customers are going to be cool with it. You need to be neat, clean, and reasonably coservative looking to work here. I'm sure I miss out on some talent but I'm just as sure that a tatooed, pierced "free-spirit" misses out on alot of opportunity.

No, they will hold you back. If they are better than the person without a face full of metal, you lose when they go to work for the competition. That's one thing that businesses learned when they stopped discriminating against women, racial minorities and lesbians and gays. Hire the best talent you can find and stomp the competition into the ground. In the geek biz, we see all kinds of people, and many of the freaks are better than the normals.

Neat and clean -- sure. Anyone who's got a problem with basic personal hygiene is going to have problems with things like cleaning up their work area, staying organized and focused on a job, and so on down the line. The only restrictions you should put on someone with body jewelry is that they don't wear it in situations where it could be dangerous.
 

bkludecke

Senior Member
Location
Big Bear Lake, CA
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
tallgirl said:
No, they will hold you back. If they are better than the person without a face full of metal, you lose when they go to work for the competition. That's one thing that businesses learned when they stopped discriminating against women, racial minorities and lesbians and gays. Hire the best talent you can find and stomp the competition into the ground. In the geek biz, we see all kinds of people, and many of the freaks are better than the normals.

Neat and clean -- sure. Anyone who's got a problem with basic personal hygiene is going to have problems with things like cleaning up their work area, staying organized and focused on a job, and so on down the line. The only restrictions you should put on someone with body jewelry is that they don't wear it in situations where it could be dangerous.
Alot of this has to do with the community you work in. Big Bear is a pretty conservative small resort town. I had a guy we knicknamed the "animal" who work for me for 11 years. He looked like Osama Bin Laden (no &#$%) and was the best producer I ever had on new const, but I had customers who would not allow him in their homes. I have no probem w/ hiring any minority, nationality, gender, or whatever... But here in CA we see some pretty farout stuff that I don't want to say "good morning" to until I've had at least 3 cups of java and maybe a couple of stiff belts.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
Customer-facing positions are always a bit touchy and require a lot of sensitivity for different cultures and personalities.

True story -- I'm friends with an Orthodox Jewish couple that used to own a restaurant here in town. One day the linen supply company's manager shows up and wants to shake hands with the woman before sitting down to discuss business. A pretty standard business gesture. Except that Orthodox Jews (and Moslems, for what it's worth. Not sure what other religions have the same practice) don't touch members of the opposite sex. He got offended, she got offended, he lost a customer.

I have two co-workers who are coming to the States after the Chinese New Year (they work in Shanghai). They were pleased that no only did I know about the Chinese New Year, but I also knew when it was.
 

Rockyd

Senior Member
Location
Nevada
Occupation
Retired after 40 years as an electrician.
Shockedby277v and bkludecke,

And what might an electrician look like?? I have seen many... short,tall,fat skinny,long hair, bald you name it. I didn't know there was a certain look. Maybe some clarification would help. That way I would be able to spot an electrician in a crowd.

Well, too be honest, a couple of weeks ago would have had a hard time hiring me as an electrician! My Driver's license says I weigh 180 pounds, when I actually weigh in at a bit under 200 pounds (pushing for a heifer award, for where I should be). Truth on job application starts with matching up to the documentation turned in for the I-9 forms.

If I'm planning on going on decking crew (fast, dirty, dangerous, times however high the high rise will be) I'd need to shave off about fifteen pounds. Fortunately, I'm on a temporary job, and the only requirement is to be productive at a miscellaneous bunch of off-the-wall jobs, so no problem.

Hey now I have facial piercings! I feel I have been more than average to my employer. Honestly, I think their more than happy with me. As for it being a hazard, their taken out when needed. I also have had to shave when needed. No big deal. We also have a apprentice that has half his body tattooed and has numerous piercings to boot. He is one of the best pipe runners we have, not to mention a hard worker. If you want to discriminate against someone in that manner, that's your loss. Maybe your competition will gain ground by hiring someone with a face full of metal.


I don't need to be a beauty queen to do construction, but showing up on time, reasonably clean, and pleasant to be around, is going to impress the clientele base. If a hard hat, and safety glasses, plus steel toed boots, and collared shirt are the requirements, go to the job interview like you are going to actually be ready to go to work. If it's a residential shop, tennis shoes, jeans, and a T-shirt, will probably land the gig.

Off work, I don't care what a person does as long as it doesn't send ugly back on the place employment. Smoke, drink (as long as it doesn't affect you during work hours),wear whatever makes your day. At work, metal jewelry, and things that increase personal harm risk potential, become an employers choice (I don't even wear a watch on my wrist at work).

Last federal job I worked on, I took to see if the federal government (client) would turn me around. Why? Because of some activism that I had been more than a participant in. We won, and received an apology from the government,(Click for what activism looks like) but I knew that it may be an issue, in future jobs. I'd have sued the government, not the prospective employer, had I not got the job, but hey, it was all good, and the ground missile defense has my finger prints all over it! By the way, the tests from it have been a success (hey N.Korea stick that in your pipe and smoke it!).

Sometimes, when we get ready to do things, they can have long reaching consequences. If you believe it's the right thing to do, communicate, and act, accordingly. Like I say...Don't let fear be your guide!

Speaking of which, about tired of chewing desert sand, and thinking west coast...
 

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
growler said:
Which day of the week is payday?

A. Monday
B. wednesday
C. Friday
D. None of the above

Shi__ rolls in which direction?
A. Up hill
B. Down Hill
C. Doesn't roll
D. Doesn't Matter

The Boss is a ______________( Fill in the Blank )
A. Real nice guy
B. Good sport
C. Saint
D. SOB

This test has worked for the plumbing industry for years and may be of some help.

No offence to any plumbers out there this is just an old joke.

I thought the boss...was always right :grin:
 
"Neat and clean -- sure. Anyone who's got a problem with basic personal hygiene is going to have problems with things like cleaning up their work area, staying organized and focused on a job, and so on down the line. The only restrictions you should put on someone with body jewelry is that they don't wear it in situations where it could be dangerous.[/QUOTE]

Ben Stein has a pretty darn good summation as to how the "geek world" feels about customer relations. I heartily suggest ALL in the electrical field read this link. The electrical trade could use and adhere to this advice.

http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/yourlife/10857

10. How you look and present yourself is your business and no one else's.
If you like the unshaven Hollywood look, if you don't bother to shower or use deodorant, or if you don't brush your teeth and people don't like it, that's their problem. If you're satisfied with the way you look and smell, that's good enough for anyone.

You're not a baby. You have to do what pleases you, not what anyone else wants. Or, as Charles Manson famously said to his judge, "You can't judge me. Only I can judge me."
 
Last edited:

TonyEEINC

Member
Location
Yukon, OK
OK Electrical Contractor.

OK Electrical Contractor.

Simple Math is a basic skill needed, ask them to lay out cans, or even a find the center of a space with a tape. You would be floored at how much time is wasted because guys can't divide, or subtract.
Tony
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top