Is AFCI a done deal?

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thinfool

Senior Member
Location
Kentucky
We received a glossy mailer the other day from Siemens. Signed by the COO, Daniel Sadlowski. Here are a couple of interesting quotes:
"Beginning January 1, 2008, the 2005 (<not a typo) NEC requires Combination AFCIs for the entire branch circuit protection in residential construction. This is the most recent example of the NEC's commitment to public safety. yada, yada"

"Siemens strongly encourages each state to enforce the most recent NEC, including the requirement for Combination AFCIs. The estimated $250 to $500 cost to fully equip an entire house with Combination AFCIs is a small price to pay to ensure the safety of the homeowners"

Comments? Has the final vote been taken, or is this guy taking liberies?

Somehow, allowing manufacturers to vote on adoption of this requirement is like letting the fox guard the henhouse.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
The letter sent to you by Siemens, which I have also received, has nothing to do with the 2008 NEC. They are simply reminding you that per the 2005 NEC, effective January 1st 2008, combination type afci's are required to be installed.

The letter then goes on to suggest installing them on all branch circuits. The letter is nothing more than a marketing gimick with more hype than information

I called the number on the letter and after 20 minutes of being transfered and getting nothing but voice mails, I final spoke with an individual that basically stated they didn't really have any technical literature, cut sheets, or even the product itself to send me. They assured me one would be available in November...
 

dcspector

Senior Member
Location
Burke, Virginia
I tell a lot of people to not worry just because the 08' is comin out does not mean your jurisdiction is going to adopt it. Some areas are still under the 96' NEC. A lot of areas have deleted 210.12 in its entirety from the 02' and 05' that they are under. So I don't think they will just run out and adopt the 08' for quite some time.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
It is not a done deal until after the NFPA Annual meeting in June of this year, and even then it can go to the standards council and even the courts before it becomes final.
Don
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
dcspector said:
I tell a lot of people to not worry just because the 08' is comin out does not mean your jurisdiction is going to adopt it.

Florida for example just adopted the 05 this past December and there is some talk that the 08 may be skipped so the 2011 can be adopted with the 2010 FBC...
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
iwire said:
Will it even effect you all in NJ? :)

It *could*

My personal concerns/opinions on the matter are:
- What makes a bedroom so special as opposed to other areas?
-Aren't other ares just as suspectible?
- What makes the outlet so special as opposed to the entire run?
- Can't a fault occur just beyond the panel?
- Has the technology been "perfected"?


I remember there a recall, some appliances trip the AFCI, etc.

Untill all the issues have been addressed, what's the point?
Maybe NJ will become "mandatory" after the issues are resolved.
 

dcspector

Senior Member
Location
Burke, Virginia
Bryan I lived in Tallahassee for awhile, that makes sense, we were under the 02' at that time. I have also heard of another area may be skipping the 2008 also. I just moved to DC 4 months ago are they are still under the 96' NEC and I am tested thru 05' I am keeping my fingers crossed for the adoption of the 2005 here soon. Most EC's are wiring per 2005 here anyway.

Bryan, I did want to take a moment and thank you on "both Forums" for always keeping us informed on what has been going on with the 2008 hearings and changes.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
celtic said:
My personal concerns/opinions on the matter are:
- What makes a bedroom so special as opposed to other areas?
-Aren't other ares just as suspectible?

It appears that question will be moot when the 2008 arrives.

The requirement will likely expand to most all branch circuits.


- What makes the outlet so special as opposed to the entire run?
- Can't a fault occur just beyond the panel?

The current and proposed AFCI requirement includes the entire branch circuit, not just the outlet.


- Has the technology been "perfected"?

ROTFLMAO!:grin:
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
What is good about all this AFCI discussion is that by the time NJ does adapt this technology, you guys will have been the proverbial lab rats for us!

Keep up the good work!
banana.gif
 

racerdave3

Senior Member
thinfool said:
We received a glossy mailer the other day from Siemens. Signed by the COO, Daniel Sadlowski. Here are a couple of interesting quotes:
"Beginning January 1, 2008, the 2005 (<not a typo) NEC requires Combination AFCIs for the entire branch circuit protection in residential construction. This is the most recent example of the NEC's commitment to public safety. yada, yada"

"Siemens strongly encourages each state to enforce the most recent NEC, including the requirement for Combination AFCIs. The estimated $250 to $500 cost to fully equip an entire house with Combination AFCIs is a small price to pay to ensure the safety of the homeowners"

I have read this several times in articles and would just like a clarification as to what the definition of a "combination AFCI" is. I think the fact is very clear that this is nothing but a HUGE money game that is being driven by the large corporation, when a company like Siemens is already trying to rattle cages and get the industry in an uproar when it is in fact not yet "officially" be adopted into the code. However, perhaps the fact that they are spending so much money on this marketing scheme shows that there is no doubt that is has already been signed, sealed and delivered irregardless of the objections of those of us in the trade. I have some concern as to the second statement of the cost to fully equip a house. First, this number is way off, if you figure a home with a 200 amp 42 circuit panel.......if say 30 spaces are for single phase loads, and the extra cost for an AFCI breaker is say $25.00, then this is an actual increase of $750 to the homeowner. This will undoubtedly be a huge price increase not only on new installations but for serviceupgrades as well.
 

bkludecke

Senior Member
Location
Big Bear Lake, CA
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The added cost is not just the price of the c/b. There is also more cost involved because of how these circuits need to be run - no mutiwire circuits etc.. I'm with Celtic on this one. Where is the body count and what is the difference between bedroom circuits and living room circuits? We have been using AFCIs here for a couple of years and are still having some problems with them. When you have one keep tripping and can solve the problem by just swapping around 2 breakers in the same panel then you start thinking that going back to church regularly might be the best solution.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I have read this several times in articles and would just like a clarification as to what the definition of a "combination AFCI" is.
The currently available AFCIs are of the branch circuit and feeder" type. These devices provided very little protection beyond the fixed wiring. The "combination" type is said to provide protection for the cords and appliances that are connected to the outlet. It is called a "combintation" type because it is requried to provide protection that branch/feeder-type AFCIs (see AVZQ) and outlet-circuit-type AFCIs (see AWBZ) provide. At this point in time there are no combination devices on the market and only 2 of the major breaker manufacturers have a UL listing for a "combination" AFCI breaker. It is interesting to note that what they claim a combination AFCI device can do is what they claimed the original AFCI device could do....some 13 years ago in the original AFCI proposals for the 1996 code.
Don
 

cpal

Senior Member
Location
MA
bphgravity said:
Florida for example just adopted the 05 this past December and there is some talk that the 08 may be skipped so the 2011 can be adopted with the 2010 FBC...

Bryan I think the combination devices will kick in Jan of 08 when you adopt the 05 anyway, ??
 

racerdave3

Senior Member
don_resqcapt19 said:
The currently available AFCIs are of the branch circuit and feeder" type. These devices provided very little protection beyond the fixed wiring. The "combination" type is said to provide protection for the cords and appliances that are connected to the outlet. It is called a "combintation" type because it is requried to provide protection that branch/feeder-type AFCIs (see AVZQ) and outlet-circuit-type AFCIs (see AWBZ) provide. At this point in time there are no combination devices on the market and only 2 of the major breaker manufacturers have a UL listing for a "combination" AFCI breaker. It is interesting to note that what they claim a combination AFCI device can do is what they claimed the original AFCI device could do....some 13 years ago in the original AFCI proposals for the 1996 code.
Don


How can they make they claim that the current AFCI device does not protect anything beyond the fixed wiring? If you plug something into a receptacle, we'll use a vacuum cleaner for example, and there is an arc-fault condition present, they are saying that the AFCI device will not sense this? This makes no sense to me whatsoever. If you have a GFCI protected cicuit, whether it is via a breaker or receptacle, anything and everything that is plugged into it is now GFCI protected. What am I missing here?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
racerdave3 said:
If you have a GFCI protected circuit, whether it is via a breaker or receptacle, anything and everything that is plugged into it is now GFCI protected. What am I missing here?

My understanding of it is this.

The currently available AFCIs need to see an arc signature above 70 amps before they trip.

Once you leave the receptacle the cord is likely 16 or 18 AWG running to the appliance. Because of this small cord the circuit impedance is to high for the arc signature to exceed the 70 amps required to trip the AFCI.

The new AFCIs will have a set point closer to 5 amps, how that will play out with appliances is yet to be seen.
 

racerdave3

Senior Member
iwire said:
My understanding of it is this.

The currently available AFCIs need to see an arc signature above 70 amps before they trip.

Once you leave the receptacle the cord is likely 16 or 18 AWG running to the appliance. Because of this small cord the circuit impedance is to high for the arc signature to exceed the 70 amps required to trip the AFCI.

The new AFCIs will have a set point closer to 5 amps, how that will play out with appliances is yet to be seen.


5 amps! Oh my that sounds like a world of trouble if you ask me. I have had service calls where a vacuum cleaner plugged into a bedroom circuit is tripping a current AFCI breaker which has the setpoint value as you indicated, one can only imagine the new can of worms the new ones will open up.:rolleyes:
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
racerdave3 said:
5 amps! Oh my that sounds like a world of trouble if you ask me. I have had service calls where a vacuum cleaner plugged into a bedroom circuit is tripping a current AFCI breaker which has the setpoint value as you indicated, one can only imagine the new can of worms the new ones will open up.:rolleyes:

Of course they will work perfectly, the manufacturers said so and they would not lie with millions of dollars in sales at stake. :wink:


Oh wait......they have lied for the past 10 or 12 years about AFCIs.:mad:

Check out this EC&M Article from Nov.

AFCIs on the Brink of a Home Invasion

Here is a notable quote, this is actually from the proposal to increase the use of AFCIs

AFCIs have had an excellent track record in the field and their installation/use have found numerous wiring errors and in addition they have found wiring damage and equipment damage that could have been potential sources of fire.

An excellent track record?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
celtic said:
What is good about all this AFCI discussion is that by the time NJ does adapt this technology, you guys will have been the proverbial lab rats for us!

LOL

Not me, I have still not touched an AFCI. :cool:
 
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