3 conductors under zip tie

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Paul B

Senior Member
Do you consider nm stapled two cables to a staple, 10 rows deep side by side, bundled? I have inspectors mention this in unfriendly counties.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
stickboy1375 said:
Thanks for the input...
FWIW, I'm not saying that I am perfect in the eyes of the NEC when it comes to bundling. I am just making my view of the technical requirements clear.

I believe the current requirements to be too restrictive, IMO.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
How close is to close

How close is to close

This is a good question, when running NM in a house how far apart do they need to be to not be "bundled" ? The big differance I see in a house compared to commercial is in a house the number of CCC's that are carrying currant at any givin time would be limmited, due to the lack of use of outlets,unlike an office that would have many people working at the same time. If you have 9 CCC's in a bundle and minimal load on 2 of them, why would 9 be more exceptible then 12 or 19?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Here are a few pix of a large house I did a couple of years ago. Do these qualify as bundled?

Two 4-gang switch boxes in garage leading into house, for garage and rear exterior lighting, in that stuff they insulate behind:

2boxesfront.jpg


2boxesrear.jpg


2boxesclose.jpg
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Here are three 4-gang boxes in an upstairs closet, for remote-controlled dimmers for front exterior, foyer, great-room, and catwalk lighting:

3boxesfront.jpg


3boxesrear.jpg



So, would anyone have a problem with this installation?
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
IMO, this is a prime example of why bundling rules should be relaxed in dwelling units.

Yes, they are bundled. Will it ever be a problem? Heck, no.

Most of those 14-2s are probably switchlegs to lights, right? Knowing your style as poorly as I do, Larry, I'm still confident that you likely erred on the side of safety, and didn't load your lighting circuits even to 80%.

Of that "< 80%", each of those switchlegs probably carry no more than, say, 5 amps.

So a series of 5 cables, one of which pulling 10A, 4 of which pulling between 1 and 7 amps, have to be derated, even though the overall heat generated will likely never stress the wire, if perchance all the lights were on at the same time, which may never happen.

I see no effective problem with that installation. And since you stripped it out (and not me), I won't even curse the stackits. :D
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
If you read the directions on the stak-its you MAY have to derate if xxx amount of wires are installed, so no those cables you installed are probably not bundled, if you used tyraps it would be completely different scenario... mainly lacking manufactures instructions, the only problem I see with your pics is the wires run behind the boxes, I highly doubt you make your 1 1/4 spacing, and I see no nail plates... :)
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
LarryFine said:
Here are three 4-gang boxes in an upstairs closet, for remote-controlled dimmers for front exterior, foyer, great-room, and catwalk lighting:

3boxesfront.jpg


3boxesrear.jpg



So, would anyone have a problem with this installation?


I have no problem with it and IMO they are not bundled.
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
georgestolz said:
Can you explain your position more?

Stak-its are a bad example for derating because they have their own instructions on derating... I don't have a bag in front of me... :)

georgestolz said:
IMO, this is a prime example of why bundling rules should be relaxed in dwelling units.

Yes, they are bundled. Will it ever be a problem? Heck, no

You dont even know what the loads are... how can you say there isnt a problem? ( Sorry Larry, just making a point)

sorry George hope you don't hate me...:)
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I believe that the labeling on the stackits bag says that the conductors may require derating. There is nothing about the labeling that requires it.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Well, I just happen to have a bag in front of me right now. Here's what it says:

Stack-It SI-1 Cable Stacker cable capacity:

Flat NM cable:

1-8* each 14-2 W/G (15 Amperes)
1-4 each 12-2 W/G (20 Amperes)
1-4 each 10-2 W/G (30 Amperes)

*When placing 5-8 14-2 W/G into the 3M Cable Stacker,
derating of the conductor ampacity should be considered.


georgestolz said:
Most of those 14-2s are probably switchlegs to lights, right? Knowing your style as poorly as I do, Larry, I'm still confident that you likely erred on the side of safety, and didn't load your lighting circuits even to 80%.
Each 4-gang box has its own circuit and home-run, and each has within 25 watts of the same 1200-watt (10a) load when all are on. I juggled them until I got equal load distribution.


stickboy1375 said:
. . . the only problem I see with your pics is the wires run behind the boxes, I highly doubt you make your 1 1/4 spacing, and I see no nail plates... :)
No nail plates, true, but it would look funny having plates hang off to one side of a stud. The inspector liked it overall. In fact, we were the only trade on the job that passed any and every inspection on the first request.


stickboy1375 said:
(Sorry Larry, just making a point)
No offense taken. :)
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
Personally I think it is a clean install.Our inspectors would cite 300.4 D 1 1/4 not met.They would actually be correct.I have done the same type of install but what I do is add scabs of 2X4 for the box and standoff points that way the wiring is that much futher away from structural lumber.I had one inspector question the scabbed lumber and all I said was that the stud is structural, the scab is to protect the wires.He shrugged and signed it off.
 
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