Working Clearance

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dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
Jim W in Tampa said:
77401 said:
I agree.
But am I the only one here thinking ..."WHY EVEN PULL A PERMIT?"
Just put the panel into code, clean up the mess, NEXT!

Remember 77401 Three C's
Close the sale
Close your mouth
Close the door.

Pulling the permit puts you in a better position if someday they sell that house and a good HI cites it.You then are risking your license for doing unpermited work or fixing for free.Also is the issue of someone getting hurt or killed.You will look stupid in court exsplaing why you did not pull the permit for what you know is a violation.Pull the permit,get inspected,get paid.

Not just stupid but also responsible for any deaths, injuries, and damage caused by installing violations and closing the door behind you leaving somebody else and their kids to suffer from your decision not to leave the customer with a safe job.

David
 
dnem said:
Not just stupid but also responsible for any deaths, injuries, and damage caused by installing violations and closing the door behind you leaving somebody else and their kids to suffer from your decision not to leave the customer with a safe job.

David

Where in any of my post do you see me saying, by not pulling a permit, any job is unsafe, illegal or would not pass inspection? Please stop making any statements regarding no permits, as associating with a job that is unsafe, dangerous or would not pass inspection.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
dnem said:
Not just stupid but also responsible for any deaths, injuries, and damage caused by installing violations and closing the door behind you leaving somebody else and their kids to suffer from your decision not to leave the customer with a safe job.

David

David while I agree pulling permits is the right thing to do it does not protect the electrician from any of the items you mention.

Permit or not if we do bad work we are responsible for it......as we should be.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
iwire said:
David while I agree pulling permits is the right thing to do it does not protect the electrician from any of the items you mention.

Permit or not if we do bad work we are responsible for it......as we should be.

You will atleast be able to say in court that your work was inspected.That might make a differance in the settlement
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
77401 said:

Where in any of my post do you see me saying, by not pulling a permit, any job is unsafe, illegal or would not pass inspection? Please stop making any statements regarding no permits, as associating with a job that is unsafe, dangerous or would not pass inspection.

Let?s see who actually said what

bikeindy said:
77401 said:
Jim W in Tampa said:
dnem said:
77401 said:
The 36" rule is already in violation. The panel needs to be replaced. The homeowner can't afford to relocate the wall. Replace the panel and the home is safer. Don"t replace it and the homeowner is at risk. You replace the panel and urge the homeowner to do something about the space ASAP. This is common sence. If you don't replace the panel you have two problems and the old panel is the greater threat IMO.


I agree.
But am I the only one here thinking ..."WHY EVEN PULL A PERMIT?"
Just put the panel into code, clean up the mess, NEXT!

Remember 77401 Three C's
Close the sale
Close your mouth
Close the door.


Pulling the permit puts you in a better position if someday they sell that house and a good HI cites it.You then are risking your license for doing unpermited work or fixing for free.Also is the issue of someone getting hurt or killed.You will look stupid in court exsplaing why you did not pull the permit for what you know is a violation.Pull the permit,get inspected,get paid.


Not just stupid but also responsible for any deaths, injuries, and damage caused by installing violations and closing the door behind you leaving somebody else and their kids to suffer from your decision not to leave the customer with a safe job.


Where in any of my post do you see me saying, by not pulling a permit, any job is unsafe, illegal or would not pass inspection? Please stop making any statements regarding no permits, as associating with a job that is unsafe, dangerous or would not pass inspection.

It?s not the lack of a permit that I was commenting about. It was your suggestion to skip the permit and the inspection that comes with it as a way to avoid complying with the requirement for proper clearance. Your solution was to ignore the clearance requirement by not getting a permit and inspection.

If you ignore the clearance you take the responsibility for any harm caused. As I said, if Frank takes your advice, than he also takes ?responsible for any deaths, injuries, and damage caused by installing violations and closing the door behind you leaving somebody else and their kids to suffer from your decision not to leave the customer with a safe job.? And I agree with Jim that he would ?look stupid in court exsplaing why you did not pull the permit for what you know is a violation.?

My statements were correct.

David
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
celtic said:
dnem said:
Was it ever legal to have less than 36 inches ?

And for that panel replacing the panel stuck in the crawl space, was the original panel legally installed by the code of that time ?

Does NJ allow replacement of items that were never in compliance the day they were originally installed ?


"Never" is a long time :D

You're right. That is a clumsy way of saying it. Let me try again.

Was it ever legal to have less than 36 inches ?

And for that panel replacing the panel stuck in the crawl space, was the original panel legally installed by the code of that time ?

Does NJ allow replacement of items that were not in compliance the day they were originally installed ?
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
I have been required to add GFCI's in rental properties I own (being an EC is great! ), the GFI's never existed.

Usually these "deficiences" are revealed during the CCO inspection...I get numerous calls to put GFI's in kitchens (where there are only duplex recpt.), exterior w/bubble covers (same deal, duplex and a metal flap cover).

So to answer that profound question:
dnem said:
" Does NJ allow replacement of items that were not in compliance the day they were originally installed ?"
Yes, it is allowed and sometimes even required :)

Items such as GFI protection does NOT fall under the Rehab Code.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Fixing part of a problem does not relieve us of conforming 100%.That's like your car repair man saying he only replaced the rear breaks because customer couldnt afford the fronts.Yes safer but now liability is involved on both him and owner.No inspector will let this violation alone and put his name on it.I am still the one that gets sued but i want the permit and inspector to be there too.
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
celtic said:
So to answer that profound question:

dnem said:
Does NJ allow replacement of items that were not in compliance the day they were originally installed ?

Yes, it is allowed and sometimes even required :)

Items such as GFI protection does NOT fall under the Rehab Code.

That's not what I was asking. I wasn't asking about upgrading to current code. My question was a follow up to the previous discussion on this thread. The discussion was about the local state code that allowed replacing items without following current code. The example that was given was replacing an old panel in a crawl space with a new panel. Neither the original installation nor the new replacement had proper clearance according to todays code but is still legal under the rehab code.

My question was about replacing an installation with a replacement that doesn't meet current code but is allowed under the rehab code. Does the rehab code allow such replacements when the original installation was not compliant with the existing code at the time of that original installation ?

David
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
My question would be first,was it ever inspected in the first place and if it was then it passed and was in compliance.Once the inspector signs it off the EC has an out ,it passed by the authority of the AHJ and now if it has to be rehabed then it is grandfathered in as long as it is not upgraded.Then it would have to conform to up to date NEC requirements.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
allenwayne said:
Once the inspector signs it off the EC has an out ,it passed by the authority of the AHJ and now if it has to be rehabed then it is grandfathered in as long as it is not upgraded.

That is not true at all, if you install a violation it is always a violation even if the inspector missed it and 'signs off'.

If it gets picked up on later you could be expected to correct it.

We are on the hook for the work we do.....just as we should be.
 

mpd

Senior Member
I hear more contractors say, the inspector passed it, the contractor is now off the hook for a non code compliant job, hopefully nobody really believes that.

the rehab code in new jersey, I think works great, it has some problems like every other code, but I will give you an example, if a homeowner has a electrical panel located in clothes closet that has been there for 35 years, the rehab code allows you to replace that panel in the same location, is it any more dangerous? if the existing panel was a hazard and was required to be relocated by the current NEC and the homeowner could afford to have it replaced but not relocated, and then decided not to do the work because they cannot afford it, have you made the house safer?
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
Jim W in Tampa said:
One thing never mentioned in NEC is the cost.Never seen it say if affordable.

If you can't afford to do it right, don't do it.
If you can't afford to fix it and it's a hazard to leave as is, then it's time to either get a loan or sell the place to someone that can get the job done right.

Many times low income people can get low interest loans or even grants from government entities to fix up their place.

David
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
mpd said:
I hear more contractors say, the inspector passed it, the contractor is now off the hook for a non code compliant job, hopefully nobody really believes that.

the rehab code in new jersey, I think works great, it has some problems like every other code, but I will give you an example, if a homeowner has a electrical panel located in clothes closet that has been there for 35 years, the rehab code allows you to replace that panel in the same location, is it any more dangerous? if the existing panel was a hazard and was required to be relocated by the current NEC and the homeowner could afford to have it replaced but not relocated, and then decided not to do the work because they cannot afford it, have you made the house safer?

"the rehab code allows you to replace that panel in the same location"
I still have my same question: replace the panel in the same location regardless of whether or not it was originally installed compliant to the code that existed at that time ?
 

mpd

Senior Member
david

if it is an existing building then the rehab code applies, it does not matter what code was enforced 30 years ago, the rehab code deletes certain sections of the NEC, another example is if a contractor demos a kitchen and the existing kitchen only had 2 receptacles, they do not have to add receptacles as per 210.52, GFI protection would be required if the receptacles were replaced, but if the kitchen receptacles were on a lighting circuit, it would not have to be changed
 
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