It will or It won't

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Bryan posted earlier the link that shows Alan Manche's (Sq D) proposal to have all 15 & 20 amp, 125 volt rated receptacles in a dwelling to be protected by an AFCI device. my question is now that the CMP have accepted this at the proposal stage, do we think it will make it through the comment stage?
 
Bob
somehow I knew you would be the first to answer this.
Thats a lot of money to bet... I am not too sure though if I think it will make it through the comment stage. This would be a far reaching precedent setting type of change. I think it could have impact on other types of proposals in the future.

Not only that, but this is a costly change as well. I am sure the debate will be, does the cost outweigh the results, or do the results outweigh the cost?
 

tonyi

Senior Member
In an era when a "cheap" house is over $150K, the cost issue doesn't strike me as significant. I few hundred bucks more just means a cheaper bathroom faucet :lol:

OTOH, QO AFCI's are the only brand I've had that tripped when running my sawzal off one. GE and Cutlers worked OK.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I am biased against them, I won't try to deny that.

If we could get some real proof that they do what they claim to I would be all for them. If we go back some years we could find posts of mine where I was a supporter of AFCIs. After learning a bit more I changed my mind.

It seems IMHO that just requiring GFCI protection for the circuits in question would get us the same level of protection that the current AFCIs are capable of providing.

As it is now it appears the NFPA is a willing participant in product sales.

JMO, Bob
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Remember should the breaker trip there is something that is causing it to trip and this should be addressed.

More than the fire prevention benefit of the Arc-Fault it will force a lot of wantabee electricians to start doing their job the right way. It will bring to an end the all famous twisting all the whites together in a box. It will stop the equipment grounding conductors from being bunched up in the back of a box as well as other benefits.

I remember when the GFCI was introduced in the trade. We went through a lot of these same problems with them They will get better as time goes on so please be patient and let the Residential electrician enjoy a little benefit from the added cost of wiring a house.
:D
 

mpd

Senior Member
jwelectric

I think the things you mentioned could be handled by proper supervision and training not a breaker
 
its true, i have talked to fellow electricians who walked in the home and said the breaker triped and reset it not thinking why, only to find a hidden j-box was melting wirenuts in wall, said electrician did check to see why this happened, but said some people collect money and just walk away.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
If they had a working product on the market it would have a much better chance of making it through the process. At this point there is not an AFCI on the market that can do what they promised it would do in the ROP for the 1996 code. How can the code reward these guys for providing junk???
Don
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
finnegan said:
I have no probelm with it as long as NJ continues to refuse the AFCI requirement.


I agree. Let's hope that the refusal lasts until the next code cycle.
 

busman

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
Occupation
Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
In my area, we have a lot of "quaint" panels such as Pushmatic and Stab-lok. There will be a lot more service upgrades if nothing can be done in these houses because of the lack of AFCI breakers for older panels. Has anyone seen rustic style AFCI's ?

Mark
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
Re: It will or It won't

Pierre C Belarge said:
Bryan posted earlier the link that shows Alan Manche's (Sq D) proposal to have all 15 & 20 amp, 125 volt rated receptacles in a dwelling to be protected by an AFCI device. my question is now that the CMP have accepted this at the proposal stage, do we think it will make it through the comment stage?
Is the proposal for receptacles only or also hardwired lighting outlets ?
Does the proposal allow for room installed AFCI or does it still have to be at the panel ?

David
 
It does not allow for room type installations, as the BRANCH circuit is required to be protected, which means from the OCPD. There is an exception to this, but it does not permit a room type.

As far as the actual wording of the proposal, I have not seen it. Maybe someone can post it.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
When I copied this it changed the strike through text but you can get the general idea. What it comes down to is all 15 and 20 amp 125 volt circuits will require AFCI protection. Personally I agree with this proposal.

142 Log #3488 NEC-P02
(210. 12(B))
Final Action:
Submitter: Alan Manche, Square D Co.
Recommendation: Revise 21 0. 12(B) as shown below:
(B) Dwellng Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits ",UL.L. ILL TI",T", installed in dwellng Unit L.", JI VVII''' shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type installed to provide protection
of the branch circuit. 13, clll.. 1 df",,,J,,, AFCb ",I'cl il L.", 1.""I Il iLt",J Lv L.", u",,,J Lv 111",dU,,, I "'lju i, """""Ib vf 216. 12(13) ulltil
JclllUcll y 1 , 2008.
Substantiation: For the past three NEC cycles, CMP 2 has reviewed extensive amounts of data and information pertaining to the benefi of AFCls for the protection of dwellng unit branch circuits. After careful consideration the panel
decided to required AFCls on branch circuits that supplied bedrooms as a means to gain experience and to put the application in an easily defined area.
AFCls have had an excellent track record in the field and their installationluse have found numerous wiring errors and in addition they have found wiring damage and equipment damage that could have been potential sources of fire.
With the experience gained, it is an appropriate time to expand AFCls to all 15 and 20 ampere branch circuits in the dwelling. There is no basis for limiting the protection to circuits that supply only bedrooms and the increased protection
is needed for other circuits. This expansion wil continue the effort to address fires of electrical origin in dwellngs.
The text has been modified to apply to all 120V 15 and 20 ampere branch circuits that supply outlets in all locations.
The second paragraph is proposed to be deleted since it is no longer applicable.

2-142 Log #3488 NEC-P02 Action: Accept
(210.12(B))
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Alan Manche, Square D Co.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
 

tshea

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
So SquareD is pushing their product onto the public via electrician's and the the NEC. Big business is wonderful entity.

To make the dwelling even safer why don't we install a smoke detector in each room, with a relay that goes back to a shunt trip main breaker for the whole house?!?
In the event of smoke, all power is disconnected from the premises. HOw much safer can you be?
I would reallylike to see the substantiation for AFCI on ALL 15 & 20 amp branch circuits. Should be interesting reading the statisitics. (Why does Darwin Award keep popping into my mind????)
 
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