8-3 NM-B for hot tubs?

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infinity

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Location
New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
Minuteman said:
On the one hand - I could listen to a few self proclaimed experts with nothing better to do on a Saturday afternoon, than to argue about something that they have miss read.

On the other hand - I could do what is approved by the AHJ's in SEVERAL local jurisdictions (using 1999, 2002, and 2005 code cycles) as well as an industry standard in my area.

Hmmmm?


I'm no expert but I agree with Bob, Roger, et al. Your inspectors are not enforcing the NEC as written. That doesn't mean that the inspectors are right.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Minuteman said:
I could listen to a few self proclaimed experts with nothing better to do on a Saturday afternoon, than to argue about something that they have miss read.

Which section did 'we' miss read?

Of course your free to do whatever you want, all I ask is if your going to say we miss read a code section that you be good enough to say which section of code we are miss reading.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Minuteman said:
The panel has a 2P30 amp and a 2P20 amp GFCI breakers. Carflex over to the tub with 2 #10 ungrounded, 1 #10 grounded, 1 #10 EGC and 2 #12 ungrounded.
With all of this type of spa I've installed, it was the 20a circuit that required the neutral (motors and electronics), not the 30a circuit (heater).
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
Minuteman said:
So I guess the 22 houses we wired with 8/3 on a 50 amp range circuits are wrong too?

I also wire ranges with 8/3 and sometimes install a 50amp breaker but usually 40... (depending on the kw of the range) but hardly ever run 6-3 to a range...
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
Minuteman said:
On the one hand - I could listen to a few self proclaimed experts with nothing better to do on a Saturday afternoon, than to argue about something that they have miss read.

On the other hand - I could do what is approved by the AHJ's in SEVERAL local jurisdictions (using 1999, 2002, and 2005 code cycles) as well as an industry standard in my area.

Hmmmm?

Are you a minuteman because of how long you last or how fast you are at your job?
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
iwire said:
Micheal that is also an NEC violation.

It may well be standard procedure in your area but that does not change the fact that the NEC does not allow NM in a wet location.

Inside a conduit is not a 'location'

NM that is outside is in a wet location regardless of the conduit.

actually pvc conduit is listed as a "wet location".... so RX no good...
 
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George Stolz

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Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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stickboy1375 said:
Are you a minuteman because of how long you last or how fast you are at your job?
Stickboy, remember: he who lives in glass houses should not throw stones. I could have a field day with your handle. :D

I respect Michael, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't take any more cheap shots at him. I disagree with his stance as much as Roger, Trevor, Bob, etc, but I also know he contributes in a positive way in this forum, and that was uncalled for.

That said, welcome to the forum. :)
 

George Stolz

Moderator
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Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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Service Manager
suemarkp said:
You've violated even more rules. Because you ran to a panel, this is now a pool feeder. See 680.25 to find out what all you've violated ...
I don't believe 680.25 applies in this case, as 680.42(C) has modified those requirements. Hasn't it? Why would it be legal for BC's and not for a feeder?

Don't most "self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assemblies" have panels in them? (Honest question, I don't do many spas.)
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
suemarkp said:
You've violated even more rules. Because you ran to a panel, this is now a pool feeder. See 680.25 to find out what all you've violated (must be totally in conduit, must have an insulated not just covered grounding wire). Your inspectors are either ignorant, trusting rubber stampers, or else you have local rules that toss out most of the NEC. Your carflex is probably over the 6' limit too...

680.25 has an exception for using a cable assembly, so rx is okay...
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
georgestolz said:
Stickboy, remember: he who lives in glass houses should not throw stones. I could have a field day with your handle. :D

I respect Michael, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't take any more cheap shots at him. I disagree with his stance as much as Roger, Trevor, Bob, etc, but I also know he contributes in a positive way in this forum, and that was uncalled for.

That said, welcome to the forum. :)

sorry was just trying to lighten things up a bit, everyone is so tense around here... and if your wondering... My nickname is because I weigh in at 130 lbs soaking wet...
 

Minuteman

Senior Member
LarryFine said:
With all of this type of spa I've installed, it was the 20a circuit that required the neutral (motors and electronics), not the 30a circuit (heater).


On the Hot Springs? models Vista? (Model SS), Grandee? (Model GG) and Envoy? (Model KK) the 30 amp circuit is for the motor and the electronics and the 20 amp for the heater.

On the Hot Springs? models Grandee? (Model G) Vanguard? (Model V & VV) and Sovereign? (Model II) & Accolade? (Model AC) the 20 amp circuit is for the motor and the electronics and the 30 amp for the heater.

We never know what model is going to be installed, so I have my guys install a # 10 white. The cost difference is minimal compared to a second trip.
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
georgestolz said:
I don't believe 680.25 applies in this case, as 680.42(C) has modified those requirements. Hasn't it? Why would it be legal for BC's and not for a feeder?

Don't most "self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assemblies" have panels in them? (Honest question, I don't do many spas.)

That's a real good question. 680.42 says to wire per parts I and II except as permitted by 680.42 (A) or (B). It doesn't say 680.42 (C) overrides things, but yet 680.42 should apply. I don't know how to relsove 680.25 -vs- 680.42(C). Certainly, an NM or SE type cable would be OK for branch circuits. A feeder is a tougher question. A panel within the spa equipment doesn't turn the spa branch circuit into a feeder, but really I don't see any practical difference between these three different scenarios (branch circuit to spa, branch circuit to spa with integral panel, feeder to subpanel with multiple branch circuits to spa subsystems).

I think you could argue that interior house wires are NOT going to a motor, heating, or control load. They are going to a subpanel. The branch circuits from the subpanel to the spa could perhaps use 680.42(C) exception if they are inside the building for some distance.

Such clarity in the NEC...
 

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
Another conflict arises because of the fact theat no romex used in wet locations. Outdoors being a wet location. 680.42 is clearly stated as an OUTDOOR INSTALLATION Allowing romex to be used as per 680.42 (C). I didn't write 'em I justs reads 'em
 

Rockyd

Senior Member
Location
Nevada
Occupation
Retired after 40 years as an electrician.
I thought that 334.12(B)(1) and (4) in particular took NM inside. If you read 334.10...(A)(1) and (B)(1) and (C)(1) one would think that if they were going outside that, USE, or UF or a piping method maybe a consideration before design. No way would I be thinking about dragging romex through a wet location. location for pools and such.

One brush with real world inspectors, contractors, and engineers, gives hope for the electrical community. Bunch of run-a-muck, good ol' boy, wannabees to the electrical world, will get a clue when they get drug before the court system when their community is being sued for a few million. They'll still be scratching their head going "Golly, those legal boys sure lightened up our pockets, does that mean those code guys were right"?
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
suemarkp said:
Only if that cable is existing. If you're installing a new feeder, its conduit time.

This is what it reads...

Exception: Branch circuits for permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, or hot tub equipment can originate from an existing panelboard supplied by a cable assembly that includes an equipment grounding (bonding) conductor within its outer sheath.

Is that saying the existing panel board can be fed from romex. But the Hot tub has to be in conduit, correct?
 
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