12-2 NM cable as switch.

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Gmack

Banned
Location
Michigan
Don

Don

When working in a hospital. I "had" to add a feeder and or branch circuit while adding conduit and wire into a "hot" panel. We cant shut down the "main" for this. Nor would Walmart allow us to shut down their main to add something if it is done by "electricians". "HOT" during routine hours.

We are a" trade" people. Working "hot" is another reason we are/used to be called skilled.

Dont bother telling that to Peter. Im "everything" thats wrong with this trade. His words.

Man, is he going to have a hard time explaining that.
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
Sarcastically recapping the red hot action:

120V is ok to work hot, just be careful - make sure feet are dry

277V is ok to work hot just be really careful - make sure feet are dry and wear shoes

over 600V is ok to work hot just be really really careful - same as above but add rubber gloves if ya got 'em

Does that about sum it up? 8)
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Re: Don

Re: Don

Gmack said:
Dont bother telling that to Peter. Im "everything" thats wrong with this trade. His words.

Man, is he going to have a hard time explaining that.

I stand by my words. I have no trouble defending what I've said. You are apparently unwilling to be taught, and you condone dangerous and outdated practices (working live.)

So let's prove what you know. Why do GFCI's detect a current imbalance?
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Re: Don

Re: Don

Gmack said:
. Nor would Walmart allow us to shut down their main to add something if it is done by "electricians". "HOT" during routine hours.

So keeping Wal Mart lit up is more important than your life?
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Okay, folks, let's keep it real. Walmart is open 24/7, and employee's (and shopper's) safety would be at risk by killing the lights for a few hours while the system is expanded. So, I'd imagine the OSHA reference that Bob posted would be congruent with working this live.

Then, the question becomes: Did Gmack follow the appropriate safety guidelines for working on live equipment?

Old eyes may have missed it, so here are those numbers so they can be seen:
Under 600 volt =

120 v = 26
240 v = 15
277 v = 12
480 v = 16
600 v = 6
Notice, more than twice the number of people were killed by 120 VAC than 277 VAC.

I believe this to be the direct result of the dismissive attitude (fostered by the likes of Gmack) towards "low voltage." What else could explain it?
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Gmack,
When working in a hospital. I "had" to add a feeder and or branch circuit while adding conduit and wire into a "hot" panel. We cant shut down the "main" for this. Nor would Walmart allow us to shut down their main to add something if it is done by "electricians". "HOT" during routine hours.
There may be cases where the OSHA rules would permit the work on the hot hospital equipment, but not every time. There would never be a case other than troubleshooting where the OSHA rules would permit working on energized equipment at a retail facility. You talk about training apprentices correctly, but you keep talking about working things hot in violation of all of the safety rules.
Don
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Gmack,

Our standard residential voltage is 120V L-N more because of Tom Edison and his original DC generation instead of it being "safer" than 277V to ground.

I would like to hear your direct answer to my question. Would you prefer:
23V between grounding conductor and grounded conductor in a residential swimming pool system
or
300V between a phase conductor and ground in an unbalanced ungrounded capacitively coupled system.
 

aftershock

Senior Member
Location
Memphis, TN
First 2 things I learned when I started doing electrical work.
#1. Electricity don't care what color the wire is.

#2. You must always be smarter than the wire.

:D
 

busman

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
Occupation
Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Jim,

I don't believe the statistics are misleading. Yes, there is more work done on 120v than others. In light of that, the statistics show two things:

1) On a per-job basis, 120v probably has less fatalities.

2) On a per electrician basis, the statistics show the (correctly) that there are a relatively large number of fatalities from 120v.

To use an example. If an electrician works on 100 pieces of equipment in a week and 99 are 120v and one 600v and only one of the 120v kills him, he is still just as dead, even though a very small fraction 1/99 of the 120v experiences killed him. That is what is shown in the statistics.

Mark
 

pierre

Senior Member
Gmack

I think that the 41 years of work you have had are highly ingrained in your being. I would bet that you are a pretty good electrician, as your pride is shining through. That is great.
But...
Your 41 years of training started before safety was taught the way it is today. Too many people are killed each year in our "trade" due to the learning to work live or lack of proper safety learning, such as your training. You may have survived by pure luck - do not think it is your training (death rates are statistics, and you happen to be on the good side of the curve - that is luck) is what has kept you alive.
Not only that, but new guys who are reading these posts, who are on the fence as to who to believe may sway your way. If you love this industry, you should say "what can I do to help the future workers?" , not show such bravado.

BTW: Big national chains can be shut down. This past August, I had a national chain store shut down, which meant evacuating the store of shoppers, at 1pm. The store manager had to call corporate... to no avail, as we gave him 1/2 hour or the fire department would be called in. The electricians made the repair, the store opened again the next morning, and no one, including the customers were the worse for it.
I will tell you the store threatened me with law suits, the store manager even said to me "you will never work in this industry again". Needless to say he was steaming mad... The good part, he will never forget me :mrgreen: I was a little nervous to be honest, but I was not going to let these guys work on the service live...yes it was a 7/24 hour store, just not that day. They did not sue me.
 

Gmack

Banned
Location
Michigan
Pierre, the reason I debate these apprentices isn't for my sake. Many of my post before had more knowledge/material in them about more advanced methods, meant to be discussed with other "electricians" who could follow along, understand and reply. A few did.

But some apprentices with attitudes, all to familiar and common, just cant resist "throwing stones at the bull". So I cranked things up some. The juveniles responded poorly. Quite frankly I thought that the "apprentice with attitude" or from now on I will refer to as AWA, was a regional problem in my area. But I see now that isn't so.

I appreciate civil/trade intelligent discussion over a wide range. Real trade professionals Don, Roger, a PE{Jim I think} and some others including you give/gave substantive feedback.

But the AWA's are not suprising, I just believe they are an industry problem. As for the "fence riders" you mention. Those who may be reached. I hope they heard me loud and clear.

I never said the low voltages were not dangerous just that the higher voltages are more dangerous. Jim questioned me with a multiple choice and I answered it in the confines of his language. Lower voltages are safer than higher voltages. Having been hit with everything up to 440, I am a living witness and I speak with real world knowledge and experience. Like I said, it isn't for my sake. There are many more interesting things I would like to discuss. Such as:

Why do I have a cd of Mark Shapiro with him saying to effect, " the bedroom smoke detector is included, to be installed on/ with the bedroom
AFCI."

Does that make sense? How will interlocking be achieved with muliple AFCI circuits? etc.

What if battery backup fails? Is battery backup required?

Must all detectors be interlocked? If not How is all this safer".

Just something Im thinking about.

Now back to the "other "issue". How did I last so long. Sure there was luck, but mostly it was because I had and was taught [long before we had "amp" schools"] to respect higher voltage "even more"

The times I got hit? Twice with 440. Both industrial. It is a whole new ballgame there. The fence riders, those who will choose to work and service equipment and installations {HOT} should listen. Ive worked a lifetime doing a boatload of work hot. Believe me, If it can happen to me. It can and will happen to you.

How do I know? Because Im the safest electrican I know.

This post is to long, but I want to close and say,

That was a gutsy move on your part. Shutting down a chain store. I dont recall ever hearing that done the way you desrcibed. More on that later.
 

Gmack

Banned
Location
Michigan
Dont remember who it was

Dont remember who it was

To the guy who poked fun at me with green apprentice leprachan [spelling].

THAT was funny. I still chuckle when I think of it. Good one. Made me laugh on my Miller time.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Gmack,

Why have you not answered direct questions asked by myself and Jim Dungar, and others?

I will ask again, how does a GFCI work?

Why do we GFCI protect 120 volt receptacles?

The answer you give to these questions will determine just how much you really know.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Gmack said:
Lower voltages are safer than higher voltages.

You're still wrong. To believe that is dangerous and irresponsible. Period. End of story. That's what myself and everyone here has been telling you. But you still refuse to believe or acknowledge that fact.

Gmack said:
How do I know? Because Im the safest electrican I know.

As long as you continue to work things live, you will never be safe, and you are sending a bad message to other electricians, young and old. You will be setting yourself and others around you to be seriously injured or killed if an accidental contact occurs. You are playing with fire.
 

chicar

Senior Member
Location
Lancaster,Pa
When I worked in B-more a master electrician was on a sizzers lift replacing 277v fixtures hot. The morning went fine. After lunch the master asked the 2 apprentice to jump on the lift. The apprentice refused because it,s against company rules. The company let the master electricians make thier call. He cursed at them and said "you will have to do it oneday". That was the last thing he said to them. He touched one of the conductors and was fried. The 2 apprentice quit and needed counciling. It only takes one time. :D
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
georgestolz said:
Okay, folks, let's keep it real. Walmart is open 24/7, and employee's (and shopper's) safety would be at risk by killing the lights for a few hours while the system is expanded. So, I'd imagine the OSHA reference that Bob posted would be congruent with working this live.

What are you basing that assumption on?

No that would not IMO allow you to work hot.

Get temp power, get temp lights or close the store, that will likely be OSHA's opinion.

Not saying hot work does not happen all the time but that is just the attitude that must change.

You will not likely see OSHA in already operating store, however if you choose to work hot and someone ends up in the hospital or morgue because of working hot OSHA will be out and I will all but guaranty fines will be handed out.

You have to remember what OSHA's mission is and who is working for them.

They do not care in the least about what is convenient or what is 'standard' trade practice.

George it would benefit you to take an OSHA class, I have taken a 10 and a 40 hour course, it is eye opening.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
pierre said:
the store manager even said to me "you will never work in this industry again".

That is when my professionalism would have slipped aside as I laughed in his face. :lol:

Who the heck does he think he is?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Gmack said:
But the AWA's are not suprising, I just believe they are an industry problem.

YOUR aditude is an industry problem.

YOU should stop telling people that working hot is part of our job.

YOU are dangerous and you would be gone quickly from the company I work for.

We have a no hot work policy and those that get caught braking that rule will be punished for it.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
iwire said:
You will not likely see OSHA in already operating store, however if you choose to work hot and someone ends up in the hospital or morgue because of working hot OSHA will be out and I will all but guaranty fines will be handed out.

Add to that the lawsuits that will be slapped on all the guilty parties by the victims families, as well as the damage that cannot be measured (long term grief, ruined lives, ruined families, etc)
 
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