NEC 680.26 revision 2005 @ TIA

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M. D.

Senior Member
I would like to lay a thought on the table, and here it is....

The codes are written for the uniform safety of the general public. It is within the protocol, of those who write, enforce and henceforth communicate the codes to make known the reasons these codes are in place.

By your failure to convey these reasons, certain entities, be it general public, journeymen, or master electricians, may not think they should follow the guidelines set forth by the NEC, "just cause some crusty old farts said so that write the NEC".

I'm sorry, but i'm rather rattled by this. you arent the first person to assume this is a legal dispute and "clam up".

I feel none of us in this conversation are stupid, i think we all know that the guidelines are there for a reason, public safety, what i cant figure out is why nobody wants to admit that when the guidelines are not followed, safety goes out the window.


I only speak for myself when I say this part of your post ,..tweeked me .

Fill it in ,.. file a complaint ...
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I'm sorry, but I'm rather rattled by this. you aren?t the first person to assume this is a legal dispute and "clam up."
The point at which you stepped beyond the forum rules is when you said this:
The pool installer in question seems to have a history of botched installs and I'm getting the feeling it?s time for me to take strong action against him.
This forum exists because one person paid the money necessary to create it, and that same person is paying the money necessary to keep it going. That person gets to make the rules. One very clear rule is that we cannot help you ?take strong action against? another person.
 

charlie b

Moderator
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Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
The codes are written for the uniform safety of the general public.
I should like to think that that is true in general. I believe it is true for the NEC in specific.

It is within the protocol, of those who write, enforce and henceforth communicate the codes to make known the reasons these codes are in place.
There is no such protocol, at least not one followed by the authors of the NEC. This code gets revised every three years, and many of the changes each cycle are based on suggestions sent in to the NFPA by anyone who wishes to make suggestions. The change process includes publication of a report that describes, in brief, what action is taken by the Code Making Panels on each and every suggestion. But even armed with the entire set of such reports, dating back over a century, you might not be able to locate the reason that any given code requirement was placed into the code. Their job is to tell you the rules, not to explain why the rules exist. Early in the text of the NEC there is a statement to the effect that it is not intended as a design manual for the use of untrained persons.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
I would like to lay a thought on the table, and here it is....

The codes are written for the uniform safety of the general public. It is within the protocol, of those who write, enforce and henceforth communicate the codes to make known the reasons these codes are in place.

By your failure to convey these reasons, certain entities, be it general public, journeymen, or master electricians, may not think they should follow the guidelines set forth by the NEC, "just cause some crusty old farts said so that write the NEC".

I'm sorry, but i'm rather rattled by this. you arent the first person to assume this is a legal dispute and "clam up".

I feel none of us in this conversation are stupid, i think we all know that the guidelines are there for a reason, public safety, what i cant figure out is why nobody wants to admit that when the guidelines are not followed, safety goes out the window.

you guys have been very helpful, but i think my next questions are for whatever agency writes the NEC, from the last moderator comment, i'm not permitted to ask how to reach them?

my problem is that i'm just outside of Paris texas, a little hole in the map called Powderly. getting anyone to do anything here is almost impossible. the city told me i'm in the county, so i'm out of their territory. county informed me we have no inspectors and do not actively inforce codes in the county. County referred me to the TDLR (Texas Department Of Licensing And Regulation) good luck wit that, they took a complaint and wont inspect

Your problem is not with the NEC but the county in which you live. As stated by others.
In a nutshell the NFPA is a private organization that writes standards that local areas adopt as their code.

Here in NC the state adopts the code and says on this date the xxxx NEC will be followed. The counties in turn say ok it is good enough for the state to approve it so we adopt it also and will enforce it. But you have been told your county has no inspectors and dose not enforce the codes. Something sound strange there. If that's the case then nothing you have is up to any type of code, framing, plumbing, elect.

My swimming pool was installed in August 2005 by a local company by my homes previous owner.

If you feel that your situation is a hazard to you and your family then hire a qualified, licensed electrician to come look at the situation, give their opinion as the best way to correct the issue and go from there.
Find out what, the code at the time the pool was installed, was and see if there were any violations.
 

ZZZ

Member
You need a local electrician to determine what violations exist, and what it will cost to repair them. You need an attorney to determine the liability of the installers. No electrician will tell you that a code violation is safe. Charlie B gave an excellent explaination. The reasons for many code rules are way to complicated for a layman, and it takes years to learn the physics, mathmatics, and principal involved. This is why you have to serve an apprenticeship for 4 years to take a Journeyman test, and then work as a Journeyman 4 years to take the Masters test. I would suggest if you want a written statement that you pay the Master who came out for one. If you live in an area where codes are not adopted by the state or local government you are pretty much SOL.
 

nakulak

Senior Member
As others have stated, but what might not be clear to you, the pool, if built in 2005, would never have been built under 2005 NEC. Most jurisdictions are one, often two code cycles back from the current version. I currently am building new work that is happily moving forward based on 2002 code, and this is a normal thing for many jurisdictions. It sounds like your pool may have been built to 1999 or perhaps 96 code, so you might want to investigate what code it was built by before wasting your money on a campaign of vengence.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
As others have stated, but what might not be clear to you, the pool, if built in 2005, would never have been built under 2005 NEC. .

In my area (MA) a permit pulled on Jan 1 2005 would be under the 2005 NEC, RI I think delays about 6 or 7 months :smile:

But I agree with you, he would have to find out.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
So, now are we to drain and bond the 10's of 100's of 1000's of pools built in the past (to code) that are not bonded? You gonna stop driving cars without side airbags???

I think you missed his point entirely.

He seems to be asking about a pool built in 2005 that does not even seem to pass 1996 or earlier codes.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
The codes are written for the uniform safety of the general public. It is within the protocol, of those who write, enforce and henceforth communicate the codes to make known the reasons these codes are in place.
The code would have to have tens of thousands of pages to do that in the code. However every code change was submitted with substantiation and a code making panel statement. This information is published for public comment and all of the comments and panel statements on those comments are also published. These documents are known as Report on Proposals (ROP) and and Report on Comments (ROC). The most recent ones are available on the NFPA website, but I don't know how you access copies of older ones.
By your failure to convey these reasons, certain entities, be it general public, journeymen, or master electricians, may not think they should follow the guidelines set forth by the NEC, "just cause some crusty old farts said so that write the NEC".
That goes to the training and ethics of the installer. However there are many installers who have never even seen a copy of the NEC. There is also the issue of electrical knowledge...grounding and bonding is one of the most difficult parts of the code to understand and often even engineers don't understand how grounding and bonding works.
you guys have been very helpful, but i think my next questions are for whatever agency writes the NEC, from the last moderator comment, i'm not permitted to ask how to reach them?
The code is a consensus document and not really written by the NFPA although they publish and control it. Few of the code change proposals originate from within the NFPA or the code making panels. Most are submitted by the code users, inspectors and manufacturers. This last category often leads to users ignoring some code rules when they don't see any safety value for the rule...sometimes we only see an economic value to the submitter (the manufacturer) when a product with questionable safety value is required. The best source is the ROPs and ROCs for when the code rule was made or changed.
 
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