NEC 680.26 revision 2005 @ TIA

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[RAGE]

Member
First of all, i would like to point out that i am "not" related to the electrical industry. And yes, i read the AUP, but this board seems to be crawling with folks that have answers to questions related to a situation that i am involved in. Considering i live in rural Texas, please undertand that there simply are no code inspectors here that i can turn to, and the issues i am about to speak of relate to safety issues with perhaps many pools installed in my area..

My swimming pool was installed in August 2005 by a local company by my homes previous owner. it is an in ground, linered pool with unknown wall composition, there is a metal ladder, and 6 metal legs which hold up my slide.
there is a concrete walkway around the pool, that extends from about 3 feet to almost 10 feet at the widest point. the walkway starts at the pools edge and is about 6 inches thick. There is also a bare 8awg copper wire that comes from under the concrete and goes to a lug on the pool pump motor.

Here are the findings of a master electrician who ran a few test on things around the pool.

(a) It was found that there is no connection between the 8awg and other metal surfaces such as pool ladder and legs of slide.

(b) it was found that there is no connection between the metal ladder, and the metal legs of the slide.

Conclusion, well, lol, it appears nothing is grounded, even if the 8awg had been accidentally severed, there would still be continuity between other metal items at the waters edge as they should have been bonded persuant to 680.26, right? me and the master electrician agree on that one, heres the questions though.

Without correct bonding, is my pool really unsafe? i take that the NEC was written for a reason, i know that UL did a TIA on 680 later that year, UL seems to be authoritive. Is the incorrect bonding something that should prompt me to stay out of the pool? what could happen?

The reason i'm asking is because the same installers that installed this pool install about 10 pools per year in my area, and of course i am concerned.

Is NEC 680 something that is madatory for electricians to follow in Texas? well, rural Texas?

Please enlighten me before nuking this thread on AUP violations eh? i've been trying to get answers for over a month on these issues.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I want to thank you for being straight forward about not being in the trade.

We can give you some opinions, we just can not how to do the work. It sounds like you would have an electrician make any corrections.
 
My advice is to contact an outside pool inspection company (if that exists in your area of Texas) and have them perform the testing necessary to determine what issues may exist.


If the testing is performed, or you would feel comfortable with the electrician's work who was there, contact the building department with your issues.
 

[RAGE]

Member
my problem is that i'm just outside of Paris texas, a little hole in the map called Powderly. getting anyone to do anything here is almost impossible. the city told me i'm in the county, so i'm out of their territory. county informed me we have no inspectors and do not actively inforce codes in the county. County referred me to the TDLR (Texas Department Of Licensing And Regulation) good luck wit that, they took a complaint and wont inspect.

I've called Pool companies all the way to Dallas (yes, about a 60 mile range) and thusfar only one (1) ever showed up, which is the master electrician i spoke of above. You guys seem to be taking the stance that the electrician that inspected the pool didi, and that is not to comment on the safety, or lack thereof of a pool with what really appears to be nonexistant bonding.

I'm not trying to get anyone to lay their head on the proverbial chopping block here, but all the electrician would comment to say is that "it isnt very safe" and refused to comment further. I'm not as concerned with my pool, as i am about the possibility of there being dozens of incorrectly bonded pools in this area. thats why i am seeking opinions.

You see, unsafe could be the possibility of a voltage gradient causing a zap like dragging your feet on the carpet and getting jolted by the doorknob, or unsafe could be much worse, i'm not sure how to interpret "unsafe"

Does anyone have a hotline to the writers of the NEC 680 and i can ask them?
 

[RAGE]

Member
in case i have been misunderstood, let me put this on the table. in no way am i asking for advice on fixing my pool. I am asking if i have reason to be concerned for the safety and wellbeing of others in my community if they also have pools with incorrect, or non-existant bonding as mine seems to be.

For the record, the electrician did come out to re-check his findings, nothing seems to be bonded, nothing.
 

[RAGE]

Member
by the way, thanks for entertaining my questions and not kicking me per AUP, it is very much appreciated
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I think I understand your concern. But pools are not my strong suit, so I can’t give you a direct and technically supportable answer to your key question: is it safe.

But I can offer an analogy. If your car dealer told you that an error in its construction has rendered the air bags inoperable, would you consider your car to be “safe”? One could say, “yes it is safe, so long as you never hit another car or a utility pole or a wall or anything, so that the job for which the air bag was designed does not ever have to be done.” Is that a satisfactory answer? Well, not for me.

The bonding requirements are, as you suspect, there for a reason. If you never have the situation for which they were designed ever take place, then you never need the bonding to be there. So the real answer to your question actually boils down to this:
(1) What are the circumstances under which the bonding is necessary to prevent an injury to a person in the pool,
(2) How likely is it that those circumstances will ever actually take place, and
(3) How severe can the consequences be, if those circumstances do take place, and if the proper bonding is not in place?

My answers are,
(1) I can think of two circumstances. One is a short circuit within the equipment that serves your particular pool. The other is a problem with a utility power line, a problem that results in a voltage gradient throughout the entire neighborhood. A downed line might cause this circumstance, and I think there are other possible causes.
(2) Not very likely. But one occurrence every 20 years will be enough for me to consider it a significant possibility.
(3) It could result in a death via what is called, “drowning by electrocution.” Current passing through the water can cause a swimming person to lose the ability to control their arms and legs. The person would not be able to even tread water, let alone swim to safety. To add tragedy to tragedy, if one person saw another apparently drowning in the pool, they may try to jump in to save a life. The only result of such a brave act would be the loss of two lives.

Here I will leave the discussion to others more familiar with the rules for swimming pools. I do not know what those rules are (I am not that well acquainted with article 680), and I do not know how much work it would take to bring your installation into compliance with those rules. But I do recommend that you ask your Master Electrician to give you a list of tasks and a price for bringing your pool into compliance. The next step, should you choose to take it, would be to find a way to notify the other homeowners in your neighborhood of the problem, and the steps you have taken to resolve the problem.
 
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hmspe

Senior Member
Location
Temple, TX
Occupation
PE
I'm not trying to get anyone to lay their head on the proverbial chopping block here, but all the electrician would comment to say is that "it isnt very safe" and refused to comment further. I'm not as concerned with my pool, as i am about the possibility of there being dozens of incorrectly bonded pools in this area. thats why i am seeking opinions.

OK. My opinion: improper bonding of a swimming pool is a serious safety hazard. If it was mine I would drain the pool until the bonding was per Code.

Martin
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Char;ie that was an excellent analogy and post in general. The truth is that pool may never have a problem without the bonding. Unfortunately there is always that infamous "but"....
 

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
...
Is NEC 680 something that is madatory[sic] for electricians to follow in Texas? well, rural Texas?
...
In most States there is usually a default National Electrical Code (NEC) edition buried (often quite deeply) in the State statutes. While enforcement may be left to local jurisdictions with possible local amendments, the default edition is still usually enforceable.

Assuming the online Texas Constitution and Statutes page is up-to-date, it appears that the 1999 NEC edition is the default for residential installations. This is found in Section 214.214 of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE CHAPTER 214. MUNICIPAL REGULATION OF HOUSING AND OTHER STRUCTURES.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
Char;ie that was an excellent analogy and post in general. The truth is that pool may never have a problem without the bonding. Unfortunately there is always that infamous "but"....

I also agree that Charlie's post was excellent. But I will say this. The OP stated he called several pool companies and only one showed up. The person that showed up was per the OP a master electrician. This person could have been a contractor for the pool co. or an employee. In this situation it sounds as if the guy knew what he was talking about but did not give any professional advise for correcting the problem. You may be advised to contact a qualified electrical contractor to come and check it for them selves. Tell them of your concerns and you want it checked out. Do not tell them of the other guys findings let them do their job. Then listen to there findings and compare. But be prepared to cut concrete. As Dennis said that there is always that infamous "but"
 

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
OK. My opinion: improper bonding of a swimming pool is a serious safety hazard. If it was mine I would drain the pool until the bonding was per Code.

Martin

So, now are we to drain and bond the 10's of 100's of 1000's of pools built in the past (to code) that are not bonded? You gonna stop driving cars without side airbags???
 

[RAGE]

Member
Hmm, it appears you guys are filling in the gaps left by the electrician rather nicely, at least you guys have painted it in black and white. As an added note, i live in a neighborhood where the electrical lines are underground. over the year that i have been here i have had to call the electric provider to replace the covers on 2 high voltage taps, one of which was located within 40 feet of my pool (just accross the street). This place is known for electrical gremlins, its been better lately, but we were having brownouts several times per week and outright outages at least twice per month for the last year.

The pool installer in question seems to have a history of botched installs and i'm getting the feeling its time for me to take strong action against him.

Any idea where i could retain an expert for the purpose of giving a statement that "improper bonding could result in serious injury or possibly even death because .... (and give the technical details of how it could hurt someone)
i'll be glad to pay for the statement..

As previously stated, i suspect there are a few more pools in this shape in my area, my pool was comepletely botched, even the chlorination system was wired as a junction when the manufacturer says in big red letters in the install book "DO NOT USE THE CHLORINATOR AS A JUNCTION"

I'm thinking of composing a flyer, with pictures and info about proper pool bonding and how to tell if your pool isnt up to code, then distributing them to other pool owners in the area. The statement of an expert about WHY code is important would be a good thing to have
 

[RAGE]

Member
So, now are we to drain and bond the 10's of 100's of 1000's of pools built in the past (to code) that are not bonded? You gonna stop driving cars without side airbags???

lol, i think he's merely saying that if it was built in Aug 2005, and wasnt built to January NEC 2005 code standards, that it should be drained until fixed. To the best of my knowledge, pools have "always" been required, or at least suggested to be grounded/bonded, only the methods have changed over the years.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Any idea where i could retain an expert for the purpose of giving a statement that "improper bonding could result in serious injury or possibly even death because .... (and give the technical details of how it could hurt someone) i'll be glad to pay for the statement..
I am afraid that this request is outside the rules for using this forum. We are not permitted to assist one side or the other in any kind of legal dispute. If you need an expert witness to help you build a case, I must ask you not to try to find one, or even a referal to one, from the membership of this forum.
 

[RAGE]

Member

I am afraid that this request is outside the rules for using this forum. We are not permitted to assist one side or the other in any kind of legal dispute. If you need an expert witness to help you build a case, I must ask you not to try to find one, or even a referal to one, from the membership of this forum.

my legal resolves with the installer are a completely seperate issue from me prospectively alerting the general public to the dangers arising from code not being followed. I dont need help with the legal side of this, i assure you.
 

[RAGE]

Member
I would like to lay a thought on the table, and here it is....

The codes are written for the uniform safety of the general public. It is within the protocol, of those who write, enforce and henceforth communicate the codes to make known the reasons these codes are in place.

By your failure to convey these reasons, certain entities, be it general public, journeymen, or master electricians, may not think they should follow the guidelines set forth by the NEC, "just cause some crusty old farts said so that write the NEC".

I'm sorry, but i'm rather rattled by this. you arent the first person to assume this is a legal dispute and "clam up".

I feel none of us in this conversation are stupid, i think we all know that the guidelines are there for a reason, public safety, what i cant figure out is why nobody wants to admit that when the guidelines are not followed, safety goes out the window.

you guys have been very helpful, but i think my next questions are for whatever agency writes the NEC, from the last moderator comment, i'm not permitted to ask how to reach them?
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
i think my next questions are for whatever agency writes the NEC, from the last moderator comment, i'm not permitted to ask how to reach them?

That would be the NFPA and you may try to contact them. But you will not get a response. This has nothing to do with you not being in the trade it is just not how the NFPA operates.

In a nutshell the NFPA is a private organization that writes standards that local areas adopt as their code.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
NFPA Contact List

I may have overstated things a bit, you may well get a response but to get any type of formal interpretation is almost imposable and will take a long time.

Furthermore, when some areas adopt the NEC they make amendments that the NFPA can not comment on.

In my area one of the 60 or 70 amendments to the NEC is that all official interpretations will not come from the NFPA but the state agency that adopted the NEC.

I also agree Charlie's analogy is an excellent one.

You don't need any bonding ....... until the instant you need it. When, or if that instant comes cannot be predicted.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
You need to find out which code was in place at the time the pool was constructed ,.. then determine if it was installed according to that standard..

If you're asking me if you should bring you pool into compliance with the 2008 NEC ? I'd say wait until 2011,.. and three years later it will most likely be out of compliance again... every three years it changes and 680 is a hot bed for changes...

IMO pools are not safe bonded or otherwise .. and here is another thing to think about,.. at some point ,..your mostly naked, very wet , body,. will have to step from whatever kind of Equipotential plane or area that has been created..

Estimated guns in the United States: 275 million (roughly).

Estimated swimming pools in the United States: 2.5 million (roughly - according to Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, 2004)

Unintentional firearm deaths ages 0-14 (according to the CDC) from 2000 to 2005: 412.

Unintentional drowning deaths from 2000 to 2005 ages 0-14: 4,993.
 
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