I need advice...

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bikeindy

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis IN
Big D 40 said:
He was an employee who had a track record of calling off often. In 9 months he had called off 13 times. I know..you're thinking that should have been the hand writing on the wall. And as a matter of fact, 2 months ago, I gave him his walking papers only to have him literally cry and beg for another chance. Was he a good worker..yes, when he was there. A very likable guy and one that I hoped would stay with the company and grow.

I would have fired him the 3rd time he missed. There is absolutly no rason to miss 13 times in 9 months. these are things you didn't say in your first post this guy is a looser and you should be glad to be rid of him. I can not and will not stand for absentees. I hate it there is just no excuse for it.
 

dlhoule

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
I can not and will not stand for absentees. I hate it there is just no excuse for it.
:mad:

A lot of people feel that way. I got fired for missing 4 days of work when my brother died. This was after 6 years and missing a total of 1 day previously.:(
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
dlhoule said:
:mad:

A lot of people feel that way. I got fired for missing 4 days of work when my brother died. This was after 6 years and missing a total of 1 day previously.:(


Your boss was a d*@#$% bag.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
My 2 cents worth.

An employee is only there to make money for the employer. If you can afford to pay him more and you would be worse off without him, pay him more.

I don't like the surprise raises idea. It introduces randomness into the process and people like stability. Randomness seems unfair to many people, and when they feel you are unfair, they will leave. Worker bees often value stability and perceived fairness above monetary issues. This is hard to understand for the entrepreneurial type person.

My suggestion is to establish a regular schedule to review an employee's performance. People want and appreciate getting some feedback on what they are doing. Yearly is no where near often enough. It does not have to be real formal, just an honest and fair look at his/her performance. Be upfront when they do something wrong (or right for that matter). It does not have to be a yelling match, just a matter of fact statement that you expect something to be done in a certain way and a clear statement of how you want things done.

In a union shop you have little choice in pay scale, so it is not all that difficult to decide what to pay an employee and when to give them a raise. The written contract will dictate everything. In some respects this makes it easier on the employer because they make no decisions about any one individual as far as what to pay and when to give raises.

In a non-union environment, you have more flexibility, but you have to decide on each and every person, on an individual basis. There will always be some grousing about relative pay rates because everyone thinks they deserve to be paid more than the other guy. Some employers try to deal with this issue by attempting to prohibit the sharing of wage/salary data among employees. This is not usually successful. It is best to discourage such sharing, but not to make a huge deal about it. Everyone should know you try to be fair about raises, and you should make every effort to be fair.

Personally I think if you are in a non-union environment, the best idea is to have a written pay scale that defines what everyone will be paid for each job and seniority level. Than for employees who do average or above average work, introduce a bonus system payable on a regular basis. I don't think it is necessary to have a written definition of what the bonus is based on, or at least not to publish it, but employees will figure out very fast if you are not awarding them fairly. Be aware that your buddy Joe who has worked with you for 20 years, and plays poker with you every Friday night, is probably going to end up with higher bonuses just because you like him and are comfortable with him. This will cause no end of grief for you because of the perception of unfairness.

As for the guy who does not show up to work - probably the best answer is to can him unless there is some special reason to give him more than his fair share of chances. People like that are unreliable and rarely if ever change. If you don't deal with him, the rest of the employees will resent it.
 

megloff11x

Senior Member
Most industrial companies have a policy that you are considered to have quit when you are absent without calling in with a decent excuse for two straight days. I don't know of any company that would tolerate excessive sick time. At the least you'd be at the top of the lay off list for the next down turn, which may be automatically scheduled...

It's also considered a breach of ettiquette to know your co-workers salaries, raises, etc., though people often do.

Regarding the pay raise issue, many younger workers think they are worth more than they are. I started out in the Army where no one was irreplaceable - after all, you might be killed tomorrow.

Napoleon always preferred boringly reliable commanders and units to dahsing ones. The reliable you could depend on and forget about. The dashing ones dropped your fat in the fire more often than they pulled it out.

Also, just because the job and the worker don't mesh doesn't mean either is bad. Square peg to square hole, round to round.

You'll go through more than him.

Matt
 

bikeindy

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis IN
dlhoule said:
:mad:

A lot of people feel that way. I got fired for missing 4 days of work when my brother died. This was after 6 years and missing a total of 1 day previously.:(

I am sure that is not what I was talking about. If one of my guys had a relative die take all the time you need. But I knew guys whos whole families were having an epidemic of death. I think one guy had 6 grandmas.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
bikeindy said:
I think one guy had 6 grandmas.

po.36039.jpg


Was it this "guy"?
 

dduffee260

Senior Member
Location
Texas
We pay project bonuses on completed projects. We pay a competitive wage for this area. Paid holidays, vacations, give vehicles to drive, pay fuel and other things.
If an electrician completes a project and the profit is made we had in the project, he/she gets a portion of the profit. If the project loses money or goes past the man/woman hours. He/she most likely gets terminated for non-performance. Most of the time we give a bonus and I am glad to pay out what they earned.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
dduffee260 said:
If an electrician completes a project and the profit is made we had in the project, he/she gets a portion of the profit.

If the project loses money or goes past the man/woman hours. He/she most likely gets terminated for non-performance.

Does this imply that your people know some of (or even all of ) the specifics on the jobs they do?
By specifics I mean...do they know the allotted man-hours, job costs, etc.
 

dduffee260

Senior Member
Location
Texas
Some of the time I tell them upfront the man/woman hours they have to work with. I let them know pretty much on a weekly basis where they are at. We have a girl in the office that takes down the project hours daily. Then we compensate for any non productive time accordingly. By that I mean if we had a safety meeting that morning I don't count that time against the project.
If I see the project even begin to get behind, I say something. If the project looks like it is going to head towards a loss I take whatever action I need to pull it back out. Sometimes that means termination of that electrician, but it really does not happen that often.
Several years back I did not do this and lost a ton of money on a project. I since then got a system down that helps. If you have a medium to large project, the last thing you want to do is find out it is in trouble towards the tail end. It is much easier to stop a little cut than stitch up a large gaping wound.
As far as time goes, I usually try and put in plenty of time. I most often get low bid by less than 4%. Alot of projects we get given to us on a design build price. Mostly because we try and run a tight ship and people know they are going to get their moneys worth.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
dduffee260 said:
If an electrician completes a project and the profit is made we had in the project, he/she gets a portion of the profit. If the project loses money or goes past the man/woman hours. He/she most likely gets terminated for non-performance.

Of course this assumes the job was estimated correctly and the GC kept the job on schedule running smoothly.

Even the best lead men can not make a loser a winner, they can only limit the losses.
 
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dduffee260

Senior Member
Location
Texas
iwire said:
Of course this assumes the job was estimated correctly and the GC kept the job on schedule running smoothly.

Even the best lead men can not make a loser a winner, they can only limit the losses.

Bob, you are so correct on that. We are on a school project now that is getting close to that. I always look at the causes of delays of course. If it was not the electrician's fault, I of course do not blame him/her. I usually send out letters to the GC and explain that we work 40 hour weeks. If we are required to vary from the time schedule we bid from then we expect to be compensated. This of course never happens. But it looks good on paper. Why is it so difficult for 16 trades to work as scheduled and everybody be on time?

And another thing. This having both men and women electricians makes my typing more difficult with this man/woman thing. But think of all the discrimination lawsuits I am saving myself.
 

wattsup!

Member
smell the coffee

smell the coffee

If he's looking for another job, he's really not happy with yours...that's what I've learned over the years. He won't be satisfied even if you give him a raise, he'll always want something else. He'll always be looking.

I'm assuming from your post that "green" means green, no training, no experience. If that's the case and you gave him a shot, then let him go...I believe in loyalty, especially if you've been fair and compensated him well. Good people are hard to find, that's true. over the years, I've found (as some of the other posts indicate) that if you have a goal oriented program this works better...it puts a fire under your best workers and makes them better, and it even makes an unthankful malcontent shut his mouth cause other workers realize that he's not measuring up...

There's always a greenhorn looking for work, you just might find the right one.
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
dduffee260 said:
We pay project bonuses on completed projects. We pay a competitive wage for this area. Paid holidays, vacations, give vehicles to drive, pay fuel and other things.
If an electrician completes a project and the profit is made we had in the project, he/she gets a portion of the profit. If the project loses money or goes past the man/woman hours. He/she most likely gets terminated for non-performance. Most of the time we give a bonus and I am glad to pay out what they earned.

What do you do if you discover (after the bonus is paid) poor workmanship that is attributable to trying to meet the man-hour goals?

Does the electrician start questioning the accuracy of the estimate?

Do you wind up putting your best men on the tightest jobs trying to show a profit and putting your lesser performers on fatter jobs that can absorb the poorer performance? If so, is it fair to the top performers?

We had these discussions where I used to work and we came to the conclusion that paying a fair wage to all employees based on their performance was the best approach. If profits are exceptional, bonuses are awarded as a group, not per one job.

I don't know if we made the correct decision or not, and I'm sure you are comfortable with yours and it's working for you.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
dlhoule said:
:mad:

A lot of people feel that way. I got fired for missing 4 days of work when my brother died. This was after 6 years and missing a total of 1 day previously.:(

Was this a union shop with a three day bereavement policy by any chance?

I have heard of this kind of thing happening in union shops because the bosses are afraid if they do not apply the rules in a rigidly uniform way it will become a precedent.
 

noxx

Senior Member
iwire said:
Of course this assumes the job was estimated correctly and the GC kept the job on schedule running smoothly.

Even the best lead men can not make a loser a winner, they can only limit the losses.

All I can say is amen to that. One of the worst experiences I had in the field was getting saddled with a terribly planned / costed job, then in addition, being stuck with the owners worthless son and son's buddy as "helpers" on a relatively small crew. That job was the only time I ever picked up my tools and walked with nothing more than a phone to the office.

As for the original poster, I think you did the right thing. Someone coming into the business with no experience has to be in it for the long haul to complete their electrical education. Most kids with about a years experience could leave their current employer for another dollar or two more, but it would be for a dead end crew that does nothing but rope, or slam troffers, etc. If the guy wants to be out there running his hole-hawg when he's 50, that's his business, but it's a poor choice.
 
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