Line Seizure

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bleamy

Member
Location
greer s.c
I work for a home security co in greenville sc and we had a guy working in charleston sc and a lady was having problems with her phones so she called out Bell South now, my tech created line seizure off a jack in the house because it was the only phone in the house (not the best thing but it works on this two story on a slab) so the phone guy proceeds to tell the customer that this form of seizure is in a violation of a "Tarriff Regulation" does any ony know anything about this i've been in the business now for 12 years and never heard this but i am new to the sc area if any one knows any thing about this please let me know........... Thanks
 

bleamy

Member
Location
greer s.c
Line Seizure is when your on the phone and your alarm system goes off it kills all the extensions in the house and takes priority to call out
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
A quick search of Goolge gave many definations of "line Seizure",
I believe what the Telephone man is saying you can't mess with there
existing phone / services lines or your tech incorrectly miswired or applied
the wiring of your alarm incorrectly ... the following was also called out on one web page, ASTM A17.1 or ADA 4.10.4., Interesting search / Readings ...

Federal Law on Line seizure gives a whole different read on the subject...
 
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hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Line siezure is when a POTS line goes off hook and you get dialtone. The term "created line seizure" is simply a bastardization of saying that the tech provided an RJ-31x alarm jack for a security panel.

Apparently he connected it to an existing jack in the house. Normally an RJ-31x jack is fed right off the demarc and all telephone wiring for that line feeds through it. (There is an in and out.) The reason for this is that when a security system is connected to the RJ-31x jack, under an alarm condition the security system will disconnect the phones then dial out to the monitoring company. If it weren't able to disconnect all the phones in the house on that line, if one were in use it wouldn't be able to dial out in an emergency.

It might be that it is a violation if Tariff Regulations where you are to install an RJ-31x anywhere but right after the demarc as I said above. What your tech did could possibly put the homeowner in danger because the security system cannot take control of the line if other jacks in the house are used.

-Hal
 
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peteo

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles
The bellsouth response sounds flaky, or at least a lawyer generated flak screen. This is, probably, just my own local answer.

In California, the customer owned premise wiring (after the protector) is not the utility's issue unless they are engaged to provide maintenance. Any local phone co will just disconnect (automatically) if there's something 'wrong' with what the customer puts on the line.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
I'm going to agree with you there. That is the whole purpose of the NID or demarc. Anything after it belongs to the customer and is their responsibility. Unless there is something unusual going on in Greenville I would say that the phone guy is forgeting that this is 2007 not 1977.

Now, as far as liability on the security firms part is concerned it may be another matter if someone gets hurt or dies because they didn't do something right.

-Hal
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
hbiss said:
If it weren't able to disconnect all the phones in the house on that line, if one were in use it wouldn't be able to dial out in an emergency.
The real purpose of this is to prevent intentional disabling of an emergency dialer by an intruder by simply lifting a phone off-hook.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
LarryFine said:
The real purpose of this is to prevent intentional disabling of an emergency dialer by an intruder by simply lifting a phone off-hook.
Of course, it's not to hard to learn how to disconnect all the phones in a house at the demarc, if one were so inclined. A screwdriver is about all you need, to open the box.

Hal, I've typically seen the phones grouped in an enclosure, generally in the basement, and the home-run from the demarc to the enclosure is connected to the line seizure. Would this be against standard trade practices?
 

Terrynistler

Senior Member
Location
Central Texas
I had a line seizure once. I had the lines in my hand makeing them up and got a phone call. Worse then that though was when I used to use my teeth to strip the wire. Man that one really hurt. I felt all of my fillings for days. Stay away from that line seizure stuff.:rolleyes:
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Hal, I've typically seen the phones grouped in an enclosure, generally in the basement, and the home-run from the demarc to the enclosure is connected to the line seizure.

Well, I really think we need to not refer to this as a "line seizure" because that really is a slang expression that can be taken any number of ways. It's always been called an alarm jack or an RJ-31x.

I assume by enclosure you are refering to a structured wiring panel or other method where phone wiring from each jack is home run to a location and cross connected. You are correct, the alarm jack would be installed before the cross connect after the demarc. This puts it in series with the phone line. The important thing to remember is that the dialer, when plugged into the alarm jack must be able to disconnect all the telephone jacks on that line.

Something to remember too is that if a home or business has more than one line never put the security system alarm jack on the main telephone number. Imagine the panic- you smell smoke, the alarm system goes off, you pick up a phone to dial 911 and the phone is dead.

-Hal
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
hbiss said:
You are correct, the alarm jack would be installed before the cross connect after the demarc. This puts it in series with the phone line. The important thing to remember is that the dialer, when plugged into the alarm jack must be able to disconnect all the telephone jacks on that line.
Thanks for the clarification - I couldn't visualize how to directly connect to the demarc without putting the system outside. ;)
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
Yeah, I used to put in Burg/fire systems and the phone company that used to own the local system here used to say pretty much the same thing to us, but I never paid any attention to any of their whining. By the way, I used to also charge large when any of my customers hired other electricians who would disable the seizure loops we installed onto a system when they did remodel work and did not know any better. We would usually be notified after about a week since I always programmed my dialers to contact my monitoring service at least once a week for a general checkout.
 
Line Seizure

LarryFine said:
The real purpose of this is to prevent intentional disabling of an emergency dialer by an intruder by simply lifting a phone off-hook.

But, in areas where the telco installs the NID outdoors on the side of your house, all the intruder needs to do is plug a phone cord in to the test jack to disable the alarm! So much for security!
 

Michael15956

Senior Member
Location
NE Ohio
Leviton has modules with an security jack installed on the boards inside the distribution panel. Simply terminate the security patch cord into the phone board and it will commandeer a phone line during an alarm.

Michael
 

rdbutler

Member
Something that no one has mentioned. The RJ-31x jack is NOT what provides telephone line seizure. The communicator/control panel seizes the phone line when it needs it to dial the monitoring company. The panel has Tip and Ring IN and OUT terminals for just this purpose.

The RJ-31x jack is required in most jurisdictions to provide an easy way to disconnect the alarm system from the phone line in case of a malfunction. If the panel seizes the line and refuses to give it back, the home owner cannot use his phone.

Here is a link that is very informative about this topic. http://www.hometech.com/learn/rj31x.html
 
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