Estimating an upgrade of a home from Aluminum to Copper.

Status
Not open for further replies.

aelectricalman

Senior Member
Location
KY
Has anyone ever done this? What would be a good square footage price? Is square footage the way to go? this home is roughly 3500 square foot. All aluminum 15 and 20 amp feeders and branch circuits are being removed. I really dont even know where to start. All I have to go by is there is attic and basement access. It is a two story home. Are there ways to make it safe without rewiring it? Thanks for help.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
Best time is when the house is getting an addition and you can convince the owner to have enough of the sheetrock removed to allow you to rewire completly the whole thing. Then when the new addition gets rocked, they can patch up all the removed from existing also. It is pretty hard to rewire a house that has existing nmc with staples, aluminum or not.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
The truly best way to completely rewire a house is to gut it, meaning strip the walls and ceilings down to the framing, and wire it like a new house. Barring that, I'd insist on T&M.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
With basement and attic access, no problem. It doesn't matter that is was aluminium before... it's just another old home rewire from a technical standpoint. About $155 per hole, plus hardwired interconnected smokes plus AFCI's and whatever else extra the inspector wants. Probably a service change too, since if you're dealing with AL, you're probably also faced with service equipment that is near the end of its useful life.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
LarryFine said:
What about the first-floor ceilings?
What about them? :D They're the only obstacle, but you can never guarantee the maintenance of the wall finish materials. Often times, you can fish up a wall cavity from the basement that lines up with the joist cavity the light is in, then just cut a small hole to get through the top plate of the wall and go across.

Repair of drywall/plaster and painting is never in my bid.
 

ceknight

Senior Member
mdshunk said:
With basement and attic access, no problem. It doesn't matter that is was aluminium before... it's just another old home rewire from a technical standpoint. About $155 per hole, plus hardwired interconnected smokes plus AFCI's and whatever else extra the inspector wants.

That was exactly my thought when I read the OP. It's just a rewire, you have access from above and below, no prob. I'm even with you on the cost -- I charge about that per opening for an old house with top/bottom access, something this modern (with "normal" framing) ought to go quicker so it'd probably yield a tidy profit.
 

aelectricalman

Senior Member
Location
KY
One good thing

One good thing

There is actually access to the first floor ceilings (marginal) on the sides. There is an attic walk out from the second floor on both sides.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
aluminum wiring... oh, joy.....

aluminum wiring... oh, joy.....

aelectricalman said:
Has anyone ever done this? What would be a good square footage price? Is square footage the way to go? this home is roughly 3500 square foot. All aluminum 15 and 20 amp feeders and branch circuits are being removed. I really dont even know where to start. All I have to go by is there is attic and basement access. It is a two story home. Are there ways to make it safe without rewiring it? Thanks for help.

there are only two accepted methods of doing this..... first, rip it out and
replace it.

second, if you are certified for copalum termination, you can use that product. it is the *only* acceptable method for terminating type 1
aluminum romex. noalox is nice, but not approved. pigtailing with stranded copper is suggested, but not approved.

downside is the cost. the certification from the manufacturer is a couple
thousand, and the specialty hypress tool is about $300 a month to *lease*.
the crimps are a buck or so each.... and let's not forget a $5m general liability policy.... it is aluminum wire, after all....

end cost to the homeowner comes out to around $5k, but no holes
in the walls..... then you get to leave that tool in the back of the
truck for a year and a half at $300 per month, waiting for the next
"big one"....

here's a link to the copalum site.... amp connectors makes it, and tyco
bought them....

http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/TE/bin/TE.Connect?C=10914&F=0&M=CINF&GIID=968&BML=&PID=0&LG=1&I=13&RQS=C~10914^P~29243^M~PROP^N~1^IDS~32001


randy
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
macmikeman said:
Best time is when the house is getting an addition and you can convince the owner to have enough of the sheetrock removed to allow you to rewire completely the whole thing. Then when the new addition gets rocked, they can patch up all the removed from existing also. It is pretty hard to rewire a house that has existing nmc with staples, aluminum or not.

Why would existing wiring ever have to be removed? Cut it off and leave it in place if they don't want to pay for a gut job.

I agree with the guy that suggested it might make sense to replace the service equipment. Anything with aluminum interior wiring is likely to be old enough that replacing the panelboard makes sense.

It probably would be worthwhile to replace all the outlets and switches as well, since at 50 cents each you will spend more money in labor trying to save them than it will cost you to replace them.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
petersonra said:
It probably would be worthwhile to replace all the outlets and switches as well, since at 50 cents each you will spend more money in labor trying to save them than it will cost you to replace them.
Yup, that's a no brainer. I generally replace any receptacles and switches that I've had out for troubleshooting purposes, if they have some age on them. The last guy that touches it gets blamed when it breaks. Replace them.. people don't care that it's on the bill. They generally rather like the new, "clean" device.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
mdshunk said:
Yup, that's a no brainer. I generally replace any receptacles and switches that I've had out for troubleshooting purposes, if they have some age on them. The last guy that touches it gets blamed when it breaks. Replace them.. people don't care that it's on the bill. They generally rather like the new, "clean" device.


You know Marc, I have had a hard time convincing people to pay me to do the right thing. I constantly run into people that don't get it. Quincy, MA is one of those cities that is hard to sell things.

Am I just a bad salesman or is there some trick to this?
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
jaylectricity said:
You know Marc, I have had a hard time convincing people to pay me to do the right thing. I constantly run into people that don't get it. Quincy, MA is one of those cities that is hard to sell things.

Am I just a bad salesman or is there some trick to this?

Why would you even tell them you are replacing the outlets and switches? You are doing it to save money. In this case the right thing is the cheaper thing.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
petersonra said:
Why would you even tell them you are replacing the outlets and switches? You are doing it to save money. In this case the right thing is the cheaper thing.

Because I don't like the stressful part of doing work without knowing whether they will write the check after I tell them the "extras" I am providing for their benefit. Like I said, some people just don't get it. But I don't have the luxury of picking and choosing my customers at this point.
 

LawnGuyLandSparky

Senior Member
jaylectricity said:
You know Marc, I have had a hard time convincing people to pay me to do the right thing. I constantly run into people that don't get it. Quincy, MA is one of those cities that is hard to sell things.

Am I just a bad salesman or is there some trick to this?

The trick is "do you want me to reinstall these old,cracked, dried up, lead-painted, dime-store devices that could fail at any time and possibly explode in your children's faces, or, would you like to use these brand new, clean, modern, decora devices in a hue that matches your sophisticated color palette?"
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
jaylectricity said:
Because I don't like the stressful part of doing work without knowing whether they will write the check after I tell them the "extras" I am providing for their benefit. Like I said, some people just don't get it. But I don't have the luxury of picking and choosing my customers at this point.

Its not an "extra". Stop thinking that way. It is like when a plumber comes to fix a leak. He does not normally ask you if he can replace something old that is near the end of its lifespan and amy well fail just due to being messed with. he just declares it defective.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
The trick is "do you want me to reinstall these old,cracked, dried up, lead-painted, dime-store devices that could fail at any time and possibly explode in your children's faces, or, would you like to use these brand new, clean, modern, decora devices in a hue that matches your sophisticated color palette?"

Could they really blow up in somebody's face? I am agreeing with you and the others, but I have such a hard time saying things that I don't know to be true. I've never heard of a switch or plug blowing up in a child's face.

I really am trying to instill a sense of honesty in this world. Not just with electricity, but in general. I think that our world is going to crap because of dishonesty. I know that money instills dishonesty in almost everything.

Sorry to get "out there" on you guys, I just need to be confident that I am using the truth to peddle my wares.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
petersonra said:
Its not an "extra". Stop thinking that way. It is like when a plumber comes to fix a leak. He does not normally ask you if he can replace something old that is near the end of its lifespan and amy well fail just due to being messed with. he just declares it defective.
Exactly. Just replace the thing, and put it on the bill. Honestly, it's no big deal. Every time I take a truck to the garage, they don't ask permission for every little thing they replace. I take it in, declaring some problem, and they replace some stuff and the problem's fixed. Maybe some of that stuff was actually functional, but at the end of its life? Hard to say, but it was the right thing to do.

Now then, if the devices look relatively modern, don't replace them. If they look like they've seen some good use, go ahead. People really don't mind, and many are thankful. It only takes a minute. It's not really even a money-maker.... it's more of a CYA maneuver for me.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
mdshunk said:
Exactly. Just replace the thing, and put it on the bill. Honestly, it's no big deal. Every time I take a truck to the garage, they don't ask permission for every little thing they replace. I take it in, declaring some problem, and they replace some stuff and the problem's fixed. Maybe some of that stuff was actually functional, but at the end of its life? Hard to say, but it was the right thing to do.

Now then, if the devices look relatively modern, don't replace them. If they look like they've seen some good use, go ahead. People really don't mind, and many are thankful. It only takes a minute. It's not really even a money-maker.... it's more of a CYA maneuver for me.

One caveat. People are not stupid. If you install a 39 cent outlet and try to charge them $20 for the part, they will object, and they should.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top