Water Pipe

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hurk27

Senior Member
Because once he put in the ground rods he was no longer using the coldwater as a ground and was simply bonding it, and you can bond it anywhere in the system as long as it's accessible.
Errrrrr:-?

I don't think that's quite right

We are required to use all available grounding electrodes to form a GEC system, "If available" See 250.50

If not available, then we must install one or more of the electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(7)

To add to this if a water pipe is available to be used as an electrode, it must also be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type listed in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(7)

Installing other GEC's does not release the requirement of connecting to the water pipe within the 5' of entrance to the building
 
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john8791

Member
Location
Iowa, US
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Errrrrr:-?

I don't think that's quite right

We are required to use all available grounding electrodes to form a GEC system, "If available" See 250.50

If not available, then we must install one or more of the electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(7)

To add to this if a water pipe is available to be used as an electrode, it must also be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type listed in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(7)

Installing other GEC's does not release the requirement of connecting to the water pipe within the 5' of entrance to the building

Just to clarify... Incoming water pipe is metallic and does contact earth for more than 10'. My ground rods in the back yard are bonded to the service panel (fuses still) ground bar. The service panel ground bar was also then bonded to the water pipe nearby per the inspector's instructions. What I have done is remove that and ran a #4 stranded copper wire to bond to the water pipe where it enters the house to be in compliance with 250.52.

I then removed the equipment grounding wire that went from the upstairs outlet to a nearby water pipe, and connected that to the stranded GEC wire I installed. One poster asked why I just didn't run a new circuit to it and it's just because this was easier time-wise considering the house is for sale.

Thanks guys!
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Well not sure about there, but around here, FHA, VA, HUD has been requiring 100 amp services, GFCI's within 6' of sinks, and no fuses, breakers only, no open splices or junction box's, and in some cases knob and tube wiring eliminated.

These home inspectors can pick a house apart, but remember in almost all states they are informational only and carry no enforcement weight, we had such a problem here in Indiana with them trying to act like they were code enforcement officer's, the state started requiring them to be licensed. and also they were told that if they ever try to act like a code enforcement officer they can be subject to arrest for impersonating an officer of the law, but in most cases they are very good, and are very well needed.

Yes they can write down code violations that exist that would be a violation at the time the house was built or additions were built, and maybe some other mods, but they can't just site codes from todays code book because of just what I said before, "No Post Facto Laws Shall Ever Be Written"
They are just there to inform either the prospective buyer or loan company if the house is safe to live in.
Insurance company's or their underwriters, and loan company's or their underwriters can demand a house to be safe before they give a loan for it, or insure it.

Imagine how many classic car owners would be upset if EPA required us to bring up a old car to todays EPA standards, they can't for the same reason I stated above. but I bet you will pay allot more for insurance for the same car, if it doesn't meet the safety they expect. some insurance company's wont even offer insurance if the cars too old.

With all that said, were in a hard market to sell a home these days, so any improvements that can be done if not costing to much can improve the sell-ability of the house could be worth it.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Errrrrr:-?

I don't think that's quite right

We are required to use all available grounding electrodes to form a GEC system, "If available" See 250.50

If not available, then we must install one or more of the electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(7)

To add to this if a water pipe is available to be used as an electrode, it must also be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type listed in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(7)

Installing other GEC's does not release the requirement of connecting to the water pipe within the 5' of entrance to the building

Right, "if available" and I'm not going to make him dig up his front yard to prove that he has 10' of pipe in the ground in a house that was built almost 50 years ago.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I understand now your allowance for this John, it just the way you stated it that could lead some of the lesser experienced electricians, here to learn, to take it at face value, and think installing a ground rod or two would over ride the requirement of using the waterline as an electrode and only bond to it.

also I had in the past on service up grades had to use a water pipe after a quick continuity test to the street meter or valve body showed the water pipe electrically continuous to the street, this test doesn't require no digging, just a long piece of wire:grin: but we do have some inspector who require it to be treated as an electrode proved or not, so you sound like a really fair inspector, wish you were here:grin:
 

hurk27

Senior Member
That's exactly how I see it.

Now go help me out here:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=112961

I hiding
hide.gif


Before someone tries to tell me a Chicago three way is against code
dizzy.gif
 
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