Is a subpanel an outlet?

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bensonelectric

Senior Member
charlie b said:
Sorry, Al. I missed that "My opinion is yes" statement. I was too busy trying to remember what "SWD" might have meant.
  • Single Wheel Drive?
  • Sledding While Drunk?
  • "Save the Whales" Dial-a-thon?
  • Stop Wasting the Deodorant?
  • Soaking Wet Diaper?
  • Stunning White Diamond?
  • Spiced Wine with Duck?
  • Simple Wage Deduction?
  • Stanley the Water Dog?
  • Storm Warning Directive?
  • Savory Watercress Dip?
  • Startling Wardrobe Dysfunction?

:lol:
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
charlie b said:
. . .trying to remember what "SWD" might have meant.
It's hard to know, from where I sit. The UL General Information For Electrical Equipment Directory (White Book) only says:
Circuit breakers marked ??SWD?? are suitable for switching 120, 277 or
347 V fluorescent lighting on a regular basis at their rated voltage.
and there is no indication that "SWD" is an acronym.

I'm sure you recall that nearly all commodity 15 and 20 amp single pole breakers found in common residential circuit breaker panels are manufactured with the SWD mark.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I was also under the impression it meant switch duty

SWD also shows up in the NEC.

240.83(D) Used as Switches. Circuit breakers used as switches in 120-volt and 277-volt fluorescent lighting circuits shall be listed and shall be marked SWD or HID. Circuit breakers used as switches in high-intensity discharge lighting circuits shall be listed and shall be marked as HID.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Ok by method of does it supply power to anything yes.But while nec says no panels in bedroom closets or bathrooms it does not say no panels in bedrooms.What was the reasoning behind afci in the first place ? Bedrooms simply was a starting and testing point in my opinion and so far failed to be worth anything.There seems to be few good safe places left without an ugly look.Garages in my opinion are far from good choice considering the gas fumes.Laundry has many of the faults of a bathroom,kitchens have grease,halls cut off path in a fire.most other rooms would look ugly.Yes it meets the def of an outlet.Would i push it NO.
Let me ask a question,what is more likely to cause a fire,that smoke detector or a panel?
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Charlie:
roflol.gif

Al:
shame.gif
image001.gif

John: No.
image009.gif
 

tonyi

Senior Member
Even with a SWD breaker (many are these days), it shouldn't matter -- a "switch" isn't a point of utilization, its just a switch. So a BR could have a switch for outside floods on a non-BR branch and not require an AFCI.
 

tonyi

Senior Member
And I bet the final zinger was...what happens when the "switch" has a neon indicator built in right?
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Here are just a few sections of the NEC that refers to an outlet box and it is clear that the referral has nothing to do with a receptacle, light nor the last box before the appliance wiring takes over.

I was taught that any point where a screw or wire nut was involved constituted an outlet. Somewhere down the line someone injected the thought that the outlet meant that we had left the premises wiring. I can find nothing to substantiate this. Could some one please point this out?

As to the Panel in the bedroom article 408 defines the panel as a panel. Yes I think that it also fits the description of an outlet. What is the service point? It is the point on the utility that we take current to supply equipment in the building therefore it is also an outlet. Now let?s argue!



220.14 (L) Other Outlets

250.148 Continuity and Attachment of Equipment Grounding Conductors to Boxes. (D) I think that a switch would be one device that could be installed in an outlet box that would be required to be grounded

314.24 Depth of Outlet Boxes. (C) And I believe that flexible cords such as pendant cords are still part of the premises wiring and are covered in 400

320.20
320.40

334.15 Exposed Work. (C) ? if it is just a metal junction box is it required to be grounded?

400.14

422.14 Infrared Lamp Industrial Heating Appliances.

550.15 Wiring Methods and Materials. (J)
550.20 Outdoor Outlets, Luminaires (Fixtures), Air-Cooling Equipment, and So Forth. (B)

551.2 Recreational Vehicle Site Supply Equipment. The necessary equipment, usually a power outlet, consisting of a circuit breaker or switch and fuse and their accessories, located near the point of entrance of supply conductors to a recreational vehicle site and intended to constitute the disconnecting means for the supply to that site. - Didn?t see anything about a receptacle or a light
551.47 Wiring Methods. (E),(I), (J) &(P)
551.55 Interior Equipment Grounding. (D)

In 552.48 Wiring Methods. (E),(F),(G),(H) & (I)
552.56 Interior Equipment Grounding. (D)
552.59 Outdoor Outlets, Fixtures, Including Luminaires, Air-Cooling Equipment, and So On. (B) Whether or not the equipment is installed it is still an outlet box.

680.23 Underwater Luminaires (Lighting Fixtures). (F)(2)(b) Clearly states an outlet box used to enclose a switch


:)
 

busman

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
Occupation
Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
I don't see any reason to go looking through the NEC for contextual definitions of "outlet". The NEC defined this explicitly in Section 100. If the NEC does not consistently use its own definition, it does not change the definition, it just provides instances of bad usage. If I call my dog a cat, it doesn't change the definition, it just makes me an idiot.

One man's opinion.

Mark

BTW - NO.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
busman said:
I don't see any reason to go looking through the NEC for contextual definitions of "outlet". The NEC defined this explicitly in Section 100. If the NEC does not consistently use its own definition, it does not change the definition, it just provides instances of bad usage. If I call my dog a cat, it doesn't change the definition, it just makes me an idiot.

One man's opinion.

Mark

BTW - NO.


A lot of people will see no reason to find contextual definitions of outlet as well as try to add words to the definition to have it say what they want it to say.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

I find nothing in the definition that would lead me to believe that the outlet is required to be at the very end of the premises wiring. What I see does lead me to believe that an outlet can be part of the premises wiring.

Where is the word ?final? or ?away from??
It does not say, ?The final point on the system? nor does it say, ?which current is taken from the system..?
This is being injected in the definition by some people.

To use the definition as some has pointed out through out this form would lead me to believe that current doesn?t flow until I get to the end of a conductor.

Let?s take a look at
410.12 Outlet Boxes to Be Covered.
In a completed installation, each outlet box shall be provided with a cover unless covered by means of a luminaire (fixture) canopy, lampholder, receptacle, or similar device.

What is a similar device?

Device. A unit of an electrical system that is intended to carry or control but not utilize electric energy.

So now 410.12 is mandating that the box is to be covered by WHAT?
If this box does not have a blank cover, fixture, canopy, lampholder or receptacle it must be covered by a device and as defined by 100 would include but not be limited to switches or breakers.

Personally I find this discussion about an outlet as silly as someone calling a gray box that has a hinged cover a panel.
:)
 
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