kitchen & dinning rm outlets

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in the kitchen and dinning rms there should 20 amp circuits quanity to be decided by your load.can you install 15 amp outlets on these circuits if the circuit isn't dedicated and on a 20 amp breaker?we are doing some condos in Mass. and my PM says that it is fine to do this.Also not use 20 amp gfci in kitchen,which in on a 20 amp circuit again not dedicated with 15amp outlets down line.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Your PM is correct.

15 amp receptacles are allowed on 20 amp multi outlet circuits.

Keep in mind a single 15 amp duplex is two receptacles.

So the only time you are required to use a 20 amp receptacle on a 20 amp circuit is when you are installing only one single receptacle on that circuit.

If I was running the job you would not be wasting money on 20 amp receptacles of GFCIs.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
Jim W in Tampa said:
Maybe ,maybe not, some forget to look. Really not needed but could bite you in a$$ always check.My first hour is reading prints.

If there's any kind of "additions or modifications" sheet he should check those as well as the prints may not list all of the pieces parts.

One of these days I post a picture of the inside of the 4-gang in my bedroom to show what happens when someone forgets to read the list of plan changes ...
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
iwire said:
Jim of course that is true, but wouldn't the PM know the job specs?

A good Pm would,but that means that the Pm would have to be good at the job.I`ve seen fiascos where the need to retro to finish was trade wide.I do as Jim does I look at all aspects of the job I have to do and I study ALL the prints.I`ve found many problems that if were not addressed there would be a huge turmoil.A good Pm will take a FYI and address it before it became a problem a poor PM says just follow the print.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I also read the specs.

That said the I stick with my original post, the PM is correct.

Do either of you (Allen or Jim) really believe a residential project has 20 amp outlets specified?

I highly doubt it.
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
No Bob residential doesn`t but I have done many commercial and industrial jobs.I spent years running emt and rmc. just now NM is what I am doing more of.Even in residential one has to read not only the specs but the change orders.I have done alot of work for a custom builder that hands you a book of change orders and sometimes an item is deleted and added then deleted again.

Just because it is in the specs doesn`t mean it is practical.Just because it is in the change orders doesnt mean it is practical.I did a rather high end condo complex on Harbor Island on Tampa bay the PM was a joke.Pages of adds like add 6 recessed cans but no mention of a switch or location of the switch,add a pool prewire but no location for the prewire or a pool light switch mentioned.When the PM was asked all I got was.MMMMMMMMM that`s a good question I`ll have to check.We waited till done and said hey where is the answers I asked for and got well I`ll get back to you on that.I documented and had witnesses there when the question was asked so I could justify the HUGE exra to go back after the fact.That is what I meant about a good PM or a BAD PM.
 

JohnE

Senior Member
Location
Milford, MA
allenwayne said:
Correct me if I am wrong but aren`t standard residential gfci devices rated at 20 amp with a 15 amp feed thru.

I think the devices you are refering to are 15 amp rated device with 20 amp feed through.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
ramdiesel3500 said:
Our local menards has 15A GFCI duplex recepts on sale for $3.97 right now. I need to check to see if the feed thru is 20A rated on these!!

If they are UL listed than they have 20 amp feed through ability.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
iwire said:
Boy we can turn a simple question into a long and confusing thread, :(

I agree with what Bob is saying here but I am a little confused about something here.

I know that a pint has 16 ounces which would equate to 128 ounces to a gallon.

Using this scenario how would I figure which device would carry more electrons, a 15 or 20 amp device on a 20 amp circuit.
Please show your math.

Always remember that a good moonshiner can pour from a 5 gallon bucket into a gallon milk jug without spilling a drop.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
jwelectric said:
Using this scenario how would I figure which device would carry more electrons, a 15 or 20 amp device on a 20 amp circuit.[/SIZE][/FONT]
Please show your math.

The 20A device. An amp is 1 coulomb per second, and a coulomb is equal to 6.25x10^18 electrons.

15A = 6.25x10^18 * 15 electrons per second = 93.75x10^18 electrons per second.
20A = 6.25x10^18 * 20 electrons per second = 125x10^18 electrons per second.

(And yes, I counted them all. I had to borrow a lot of fingers and toes, but I managed none the less ...)

What does that have to do with moonshine?!?
 

Bob NH

Senior Member
"Using this scenario how would I figure which device would carry more electrons, a 15 or 20 amp device on a 20 amp circuit.
Please show your math."


It isn't math. It's demand. The will both carry just enough electrons to meet the demand of whatever is connected to the device. Presumably, the 15 Amp device will fail first, but probably not in the lifetime of the house.
 

Ragin Cajun

Senior Member
Location
Upstate S.C.
I guess it's all in the drawings/specs.

Personally, UL, etc. notwithstanding, in my home I only install 20A receptables. If you don't think there is a real difference, plug in an appliance in both, the difference in "grip" is dramatic.


Yes, I know, bid the documents or you won't get the job. But do a show and tell to the owner and he will likely go for the 20A (up-charge). I always recomment the 20A for that reason.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Ragin heres the deal.

If you purchase 15 and 20 amp receptacles of the same grade and manufacturer you will find the internal parts are identical.

You can get the same 'good grip' with a 15 if you buy a good one.

Of course there is nothing wrong with using 20s as long as the circuit is a 20.

Installing a 20 on a 15 amp circuit is a violation.
 
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