MC as travellers

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marinesgt0411

Senior Member
have been having a lot of trouble with piece workers hooking up three and four way switches wrong. so started to think (which is normally dangerous for me) if I used "high voltage" MC as my travelers and "low voltage" MC for my commans it might make it easier. the only problem I can forsee is that the "high voltage" MC has a GREY grounded and the "low voltage" has a WHITE grounded and I am not sure that the two can be mixed.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
It depends on what voltage systems you have within the building. If there is one system i.e. 120/240 than the grounded conductors can be both gray and white.
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
Piece workers........They are a pet peeve of mine anyone have horror stories of piece workers to share........I have a good one if anyone wants to hear it ???????
 

JohnE

Senior Member
Location
Milford, MA
We don't have piece workers here for electrical work, so I'd like to hear the story. I really don't get the concept of the piece work I've heard about on this forum. You sub out the easy stuff?
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
marinesgt0411 said:
have been having a lot of trouble with piece workers hooking up three and four way switches wrong.

If they can't differenciate between BLACK RED WHITE, maybe you need some new workers that aren't so color blind?
:D
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
marinesgt0411 said:
have been having a lot of trouble with piece workers hooking up three and four way switches wrong. so started to think (which is normally dangerous for me) if I used "high voltage" MC as my travelers and "low voltage" MC for my commans it might make it easier. the only problem I can forsee is that the "high voltage" MC has a GREY grounded and the "low voltage" has a WHITE grounded and I am not sure that the two can be mixed.

Its simple , you get what you paid for.You want electricians but your hiring helpers.This is what is wrong in Floridas licensing system. A master often never even sees the job and yet might have 200 guys doing electrical work that cant even pass a journeymans test.The solution is to have a qualified electrician on the job site.You cant afford to do this on track homes and most piece workers only care about one thing and thats GREEN.They will do as little as they can and will not take time to be sure anything is right or legal.They will not fix any damaged wire,loose wire nuts,install goof rings or anything else.Sad part is the home owner thinks he got a real electrician and a house to code that was inspected and passed.
 

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
I agree. I have to inspect and pass some real garbage here in SW Florida, built by some very big name nation wide builders. We have many piece workers that can not speak english. they get told to run wire form a to b. I have met only 2 licensed Journyman in my 35 years in the trade. I don't count the union boys. Nobody cares, There is no workmanship. Just a "Get 'er done type attitude. 20 something year olds just out of collage, sent to a 6 week training course. Never set foot on a construction site. Now he is a construction supervisor or your $350.00 home. This info came from a 20 something years old...........
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Cavie said:
I agree. I have to inspect and pass some real garbage here in SW Florida, built by some very big name nation wide builders. We have many piece workers that can not speak english. they get told to run wire form a to b. I have met only 2 licensed Journyman in my 35 years in the trade. I don't count the union boys. Nobody cares, There is no workmanship. Just a "Get 'er done type attitude. 20 something year olds just out of collage, sent to a 6 week training course. Never set foot on a construction site. Now he is a construction supervisor or your $350.00 home. This info came from a 20 something years old...........

20 years ago in Naples i was wiring homes the old fashioned way,licensed journeyman with at tops 1 or 2 helpers (prefered doing it alone).Quality was still wanted back then.Now a man with a masters trying to wire his own jobs is unheard of.He cant find any builders wanting to pay what he needs to make.

Way it is now is start as helper $10 hour,work 4 years and pass journeyman test,work 4 more and get masters,now take tool belt off cause you nolonger can afford to do the job,hire helpers to do the work and pretend to oversee it.
 

Dave58er

Senior Member
Location
Dearborn, MI
I'm not really familliar with "peice workers". Sounds like they are basically unskilled people off the street.

This is bad no matter what.

Unskilled workers on a residential job that should get a thorough inspection doesn't seem as scary though as the same workers on a commercial job that may get a quick glance from an inspector who thinks he's dealing with legit workers.

The OP said "mc cable". I'm guessing these aren't dwelling units.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Dave58er said:
I'm not really familliar with "peice workers". Sounds like they are basically unskilled people off the street.

This is bad no matter what.

Unskilled workers on a residential job that should get a thorough inspection doesn't seem as scary though as the same workers on a commercial job that may get a quick glance from an inspector who thinks he's dealing with legit workers.

The OP said "mc cable". I'm guessing these aren't dwelling units.

Piece workers are guys getting payed by the job instead of by the hour.While illegal in some areas its easy to get around.They are guys that show up early ,work thru breaks and lunch and stay late.They can make and should more than the average worker.So far thats fine.Problem is they only care about geting done.This often results in poor dangerious work.They take no pride in the finished job.

Not sure why he is using mc,Perhaps required for the building.Just think about the same guys cutting and splicing mc.Bet they dont even carry anti shorts.Come visit florida and you will see what he is dealing with.Friday the cops showed up to tell the spanish workers from mexico to turn down the music.Very few english speaking workers on jobs here anymore.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
I am concerned that the original post is getting a bit hi-jacked, so I will divide my responses into two posts. I can't resist a good piecework bashing, so it will follow. Perhaps the moderators will move the original post into a new thread; if so, this post should follow the grays/whites topic.

Sarge said:
so started to think (which is normally dangerous for me) if I used "high voltage" MC as my travelers and "low voltage" MC for my commans it might make it easier.
I don't know of the color configurations of the cable you're contemplating, so I can't really comment on this. I don't know how you can make it easier that way.

Perhaps simply looping your common around the travellers a few times would be an easier solution.

Sarge said:
the only problem I can forsee is that the "high voltage" MC has a GREY grounded and the "low voltage" has a WHITE grounded and I am not sure that the two can be mixed.
Trevor said:
It depends on what voltage systems you have within the building.
I somewhat agree with Trevor's response; see 200.6(D)(1) & (2). If there are two systems (120/208 and 277/480) in the same raceway, enclosure or what have you, then one must be white and the other must be gray.

The idea of two systems in the same building, but not sharing a raceway, and having two colors for the same system in the same raceway is confusing as all get out, but would still be legal, IMO.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Perhaps we should start a new tread on piece work.
Getting back to the op.Problem is same if romex or mc.How do we mark the travelers.I twist the black and red together clockwise a few turns(pretty ovious of intent) then either strip the hot or switch leg or wrap it counter clockwise around travelers.Now that works fine if i also trim.Some will do nothing and that causes time lost.Even with adding BOY you still will have problems.Best to only allow your top men to touch 3 ways or 4 ways and let same man do both sides.It is not only piece workers that mess this up.
 

marinesgt0411

Senior Member
OK MC= because it is residential over three stories
not multipul systems 120/240 single phase
each condo has its own panel and meter
no 277 volt in eintire building
"high voltage" MC has brown orange purple or yellow with grey and green in various configurations can get brown orange or orange yellow or brown yellow or any other combination
"low voltage MC has black red or blue with white and green can also get that in almost any combination

my main consern is can I mix the grey and white on the same circuit?

just trying to find an easy way to identify which are the travellers and which are the commons and switch legs.

just spent four weeks on a 10 story condo rewireing three and four way switches where the traveller and common got switched because they were both black coming into the box in a double MC connector. and as we are now doing two 30 story condos was looking for a way to identify the travellers that was more or less permanant and idiot proof.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
marinesgt0411 said:
OK MC= because it is residential over three stories
not multipul systems 120/240 single phase
each condo has its own panel and meter
no 277 volt in eintire building
"high voltage" MC has brown orange purple or yellow with grey and green in various configurations can get brown orange or orange yellow or brown yellow or any other combination
"low voltage MC has black red or blue with white and green can also get that in almost any combination

my main consern is can I mix the grey and white on the same circuit?

just trying to find an easy way to identify which are the travellers and which are the commons and switch legs.

just spent four weeks on a 10 story condo rewireing three and four way switches where the traveller and common got switched because they were both black coming into the box in a double MC connector. and as we are now doing two 30 story condos was looking for a way to identify the travellers that was more or less permanant and idiot proof.

No such thing as idiot proof.You could try training them on how you want it done but half wont understand english and other half wont care.Using high volt wire wont likely help either but its worth a try.I would go for yellow /orange (easy to see) and for any dead end 3 ways use boy and brown being the constant hot.Let us know how this works out.Be willing to bet they will be more confused than ever.Couldnt you just use one or 2 good men on the switches ? We get problems from a and b switches in offices that have 2 light fixtures.My cure is red goes to first light so then its black to black on pass thru.Makes it fool proof.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
marinesgt0411 said:
my main consern is can I mix the grey and white on the same circuit?
Yes, you may.

marinesgt0411 said:
just spent four weeks on a 10 story condo rewireing three and four way switches where the traveller and common got switched because they were both black coming into the box in a double MC connector.
That puts this into perspective, thanks. :)

marinesgt0411 said:
...and as we are now doing two 30 story condos was looking for a way to identify the travellers that was more or less permanant and idiot proof.
Seriously, I wouldn't do what you're considering.

How many hands are touching this, rough and trim? Can you minimize the number of people flowing through these? Doing that would eliminate the problem.

Having a special cable for the travellers means they'll have to keep track of it, keep it on hand, lug it up 30 floors, and use it the way you intended. I don't see it happening. People will get more confused from this.

Here's what I'd suggest:

  • Strip out a box with the double-MC connector.
  • When inserting the cables, leave the travellers twisted up, all the way to the tip.
  • Wrap the common around the travellers in a tight twist inside the box close to the connector for an inch, then totally seperate after that.
  • Take a picture of the completed threeway with a digital camera, and type up a brief explanation of the problem, and paste the picture into the memo to show what the job should look like.
  • Figure out what your acceptable amount of troubleshooting time is per unit/floor/building is. Multiply this number by 75%, and offer it as a bonus for good work, if the unit/floor/building is under budget for troubleshooting. (As in, retain 25% of this amount just in case the problem gets missed in troubleshooting the first go-around after payout.)

What do you think?
 
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