I'm confused

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Paul B

Senior Member
Service modification.

I have two 200 amp panels. I ran two electrodes in the ground, wired both panels to both of the rods. I also ran separate #4 to cold and hot water lines. House is on well, water service is plastic, only copper is above water heater. I have neutral bars tied together with #4.

Inspector came out and released for service but called and said he wants the four #4's tied together with a split bolt. Does this make any sense?

Paul
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Paul B said:
Inspector came out and released for service but called and said he wants the four #4's tied together with a split bolt. Does this make any sense?
Not to me. That's the purpose of the bonding jumper/ground bus. Those conductors are already electrically connected.
 

Dave85

Member
Location
NJ
whenever I get an inspector that tells me to do something that just does not sound right I tell him:

"I'm sorry sir but could you please show me this in the code book?...I want to read over it myself just to see exactly what I did wrong here."

It's funny watching them going though the NEC looking for something that's just not there
biggrin.gif
 

Paul B

Senior Member
Dave85,

That is what I usually do but I wasn't there this time. I think he released it for service because there was nothing wrong, hes just jerking me around. This particular county does this especially if you from another county.

Paul
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
georgestolz said:
County rivalry?

I've experienced state rivalry, but county?!?

Jeez. I feel for you.

It is not unheard of for local building departments to favor local contractors. Just as it is not unheard of for them to favor certain contractors over others.
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
Paul B said:
Service modification.

I have two 200 amp panels. I ran two electrodes in the ground, wired both panels to both of the rods. I also ran separate #4 to cold and hot water lines. House is on well, water service is plastic, only copper is above water heater. I have neutral bars tied together with #4.

Inspector came out and released for service but called and said he wants the four #4's tied together with a split bolt. Does this make any sense?

Can you clarify exactly what you have? It sounds like you have more than a 200A service, so how large are your service entrance conductors? Is each panel being fed from the meter via a double lug connection? What size are those wires (meter to panel)?

Your neutral may be undersized if you only have a #4 from the meter to each panel. If that #4 connecting the neutral busses together is an extra wire (in parallel with the path through the meter to the other panel), then it should be removed as its a unnecessary path (but only if the neutrals are sized at least per 250.66 for the size service conductors you have).
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
suemarkp said:
Can you clarify exactly what you have? It sounds like you have more than a 200A service, so how large are your service entrance conductors? Is each panel being fed from the meter via a double lug connection? What size are those wires (meter to panel)?

Your neutral may be undersized if you only have a #4 from the meter to each panel. If that #4 connecting the neutral busses together is an extra wire (in parallel with the path through the meter to the other panel), then it should be removed as its a unnecessary path (but only if the neutrals are sized at least per 250.66 for the size service conductors you have).

He never said what size service he has, but to me sounds like a 320, with two 200a main breaker panels, probably ran 4/0 ser into the panels, so you need a #4 cu. wire to bond the water and the panels together
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
I don't agree. If he has a 320A service, then the service wires should be the equivalent of 250-300 KCMil. This requires a #2 copper or 1/0 aluminum wire be brought to each panel. However, using 4/0 SER would provide a wire sized at least that to each panel. So the panels are already bonded to each other and there is no need to run a #4 between the panels. You could even argue that the extra #4 wire violates 250.6 by creating objectionable current.

The ground rod could be a #6 off of either panel, but only because wires to ground rods aren't required to be larger than that. I suppose you could run #6 off of both panels, but there is no need since the panel are already interconnected by the large grounded conductor in the SER cable.

The water pipes are tougher if they are in fact an electrode. Where exactly in the water pipe ground is the GEC? You are permitted to run #4 taps off the GEC to a 200A panel. What is unclear to me is whether one panel must have an unspliced #2 to the water pipe or not. I think most people seem to agree that the GEC is the pipe itself, and the #4's are taps back to each panel. That is permitted if the pipe is the GEC. It seems easier to me to just run a #2 copper from one panel to the water pipe and avoid the confusion. If you are just bonding the piping, I don't see how you could run less than a #2 to it (no tap rule for pipe bonding).
 

Paul B

Senior Member
OK let me see if I can explain this better. I have two 200 amp CH panels with main breakers. I have a 4/0 4/0 4/0 USE cable from each hanging out the wall. This is what the POCO will hook to there meter. I have two #4 bare copper ran from one panel to two ground rods (one #4 to each), this is a requirement of this particular county even if it is one panel with 100 amp mains. I have the neutral bars in both panels tied together with two #4 bare copper wires, this is also a requirement in this county. I have two #4 bare copper wires ran from each panel to the cold and hot water pipes above the water heater.

The inspector wants the bare copper wire in each panel connected with a split bolt even though they are already connected on the neutral bar.

I already made the change for him sensible or not.

Paul
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
I can't explain why he wants the split bolt, nor can I explain why you have the local rules you do. But the water pipe bonding is to be sized per 250.66 and this note to 250.66 seems relevant:

1. Where multiple sets of service-entrance conductors are used as
permitted in 230.40, Exception No. 2, the equivalent size of the largest
service-entrance conductor shall be determined by the largest sum
of the areas of the corresponding conductors of each set.

I'd say tear out the two #4's to the water pipe and run one #2, from either panel.
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
suemarkp said:
I don't agree. If he has a 320A service, then the service wires should be the equivalent of 250-300 KCMil. This requires a #2 copper or 1/0 aluminum wire be brought to each panel. However, using 4/0 SER would provide a wire sized at least that to each panel. So the panels are already bonded to each other and there is no need to run a #4 between the panels. You could even argue that the extra #4 wire violates 250.6 by creating objectionable current.

That #4 would be a bond wire and that is required....
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
What are you bonding? The panels are bonded to each other by the service neutral, as it is allow to perform that function on the line side of a service disconnect (or in the service disconnect).

I still maintain that a #4 grounded wire is too small to a 200A panel when the total service is larger than 250A. What rule allows you to use something smaller that what 250.66 dictates (based on on the sum of the two service cable sizes) when you have a multi panel service?

For bonding things inside that panel to itself (such as conduits), then #4 would be OK.
 
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