conduit bends

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iwire

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Massachusetts
tallgirl said:
It's not about "time". It's about the way that having actual wires in the walls is a prerequisite for having Sheetrock on the walls. Using conduit decouples the wires being in the walls from the hanging of Sheetrock.

I am lost.

If you have time to put EMT in the walls before Sheetrock you have time to install NM before Sheetrock.

What am I missing?

FWIW in my area installing EMT needs a permit and licensed personal.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
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Controls Systems firmware engineer
LarryFine said:
As well as a rough-in inspection.

So far as I know there are no rough-in inspections done on restorations in New Orleans. The only inspection is a walk-through with the property owner, electrician, and city inspector. If the property owner and electrician agree the work was done properly it's practically a rubber stamp. Remember -- New Orleans has over 100,000 homes in need of electrical work. They don't do it by the same rules as elsewhere.

And I disagree that it takes the same amount of time to put EMT into a wall as it does to put in NM. You're thinking in term of doing everything versus shoving a piece of EMT with a box attached into a ceiling plate, attaching the box to a stud, then attaching the EMT to the stud with a pair of clamps.

Maybe I need to ask a different question -- how long does it take you to install a 1-gang receptacle outlet with a peice of NM going through the ceiling plate into the attic space, staple the NM to the stud, etc? Same question to setup for a pair of 1P switches in a 2-gang box with 2 pieces of NM? Assume your feeding the box in the ceiling and switching hot in the 2-gang box.
 
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allenwayne

Senior Member
tallgirl said:
It's not about "time". It's about the way that having actual wires in the walls is a prerequisite for having sheetrock on the walls. Using conduit decouples the wires being in the walls from the hanging of sheetrock.



I think you're looking at it as a traditional job where an electrician has a helper or two and they go into a house for a day or two solid for rough and finish. Getting skilled trades people to donate more than an hour or three at a time is hard. It's not going to be a case of having an electrician who can bring in a helper and knock out a house.

The issue of whether or not running EMT requires a license is something that I know I have to look into. I'm hoping the answer is "No" so my group can teach people how to do that. We already have people who are competent at hanging and finishing sheetrock.


If time is of the essence Nm is the way to go.I`ve totaly roughed in 1050 sq ft in under 5 hours.Then the trim crew came after all was ready.This is assuming NM is allowed.To run emt then pull conductors then trim out the finish time is alot longer.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
allenwayne said:
If time is of the essence Nm is the way to go.I`ve totaly roughed in 1050 sq ft in under 5 hours.Then the trim crew came after all was ready.This is assuming NM is allowed.To run emt then pull conductors then trim out the finish time is alot longer.

NM is allowed -- I just joke about that area being one giant wet location.

I'll be back there soon and see how things go. There are a lot of reasons that I think EMT is the right way to go, but until I can sit down with people, find out what the law says about certain things, and see how this actually affects getting a house fixed, I can't prove that.
 

Bob NH

Senior Member
Work the Politics

Work the Politics

Under the circumstances in New Orleans, you might be able to establish a protocol between the licensed electricians, inspector (AHD), and leaders of your trained team; to let the team nail boxes, drill holes, and even string and staple NM; all subject to "supervision" by the licensed person before the rough inspection. The licensed person may not necessarily be on site at all times, but would inspect and accept responsibility for the work.

From what I have seen of the mayor on TV, it would be worth working on that protocol and should not be too difficult to work it out. You might get the local TV people to help you, and even get some formal training for your team and some publicity on the 6 O'Clock news.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
Bob NH said:
Under the circumstances in New Orleans, you might be able to establish a protocol between the licensed electricians, inspector (AHD), and leaders of your trained team; to let the team nail boxes, drill holes, and even string and staple NM; all subject to "supervision" by the licensed person before the rough inspection. The licensed person may not necessarily be on site at all times, but would inspect and accept responsibility for the work.

From what I have seen of the mayor on TV, it would be worth working on that protocol and should not be too difficult to work it out. You might get the local TV people to help you, and even get some formal training for your team and some publicity on the 6 O'Clock news.

That exact situation has been done and we've had electricians who are willing to work that way. The inspectors are apparently aware that is being done as well.

Unfortunately, with few exceptions the training starts to break down, rework becomes a problem, and then licensed electricians become too busy to come back and check what's been done. Then everything gets hung up waiting on them to reappear.

My goal is finding an alternative to the way we've done things that's harder to mess up and safer for everyone involved.

It's a unique environment with a lot of unique problems that require unique solutions.
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
tallgirl said:
There are a lot of reasons that I think EMT is the right way to go,

Tall no disrespect here at all but IMO your trying to reinvent the wheel.

There is only one area of the entire country that EMT is normally used in single and two family homes and that IMO has more to do with politics than any other reasons.

I guess I am just having a hard time comprehending that a person that does electric work as a hobby has found a better way to do it than the 60,000 or so ECs in the USA.

Have you ever tried to run EMT through wood studs?

Hope you have a large supply of couplings. ;)
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
In terms of speed on an rough install:

Conduit - By far the slowest method...and what happens when a location is missed or added AFTER the rock is hung? More time lost. Requires mechanical ability.

BX/AC/MC - Pretty quick, easy to work with, forgiving. People with little mechanical ability can easily perform a rough. If a location is added/changed simple enough to relocate/add.

Romex - Very quick, easy to work with, not so forgiving. People with little mechanical ability can easily perform a rough. If a location is added/changed simple enough to relocate/add.

If a blueprint (henceforth called a "map") is supplied, using either AC or Romex can be the easiest install for you. Mark the map up with different colored hi-lighters for each of the wire sizes used:
Blue: 14/2
Red: 14/3
Orange: 12/2
Purple: 12/3
Green: "Odd sizes" 10-8-6/2-3
Yellow: Cable/Tele/Doorbell wiring

The people installing do not need to know what the particular wire size is, just that they need a 14/2 from here to there, followed by another 14/2, then a 14/3 from there to another location.

If you're using Romex, use highlighter colors that coincide with the jacket color.

For straping the AC/Romex...simply use CJ-6's or "stackers", the risk of damage on install is minimized as compared to a standard staple.

[Caddy CJ6]:
1257_149.jpg


[3M Stacker]:
539074.gif
 

emahler

Senior Member
shoot, if you are in favor of emt, you'd be better of using smurf tube (ENT). Especially if you are in a wood framed structure. It allows you the advantages of EMT without all the drawbacks.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
emahler,
... if you are in favor of emt, you'd be better of using smurf tube (ENT). It allows you the advantages of EMT without all the drawbacks.
No it doesn't...ENT provides no more physical protection than does NM..it also is not an EGC.
Don
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
iwire said:
Tall no disrespect here at all but IMO your trying to reinvent the wheel.

There is only one area of the entire country that EMT is normally used in single and two family homes and that IMO has more to do with politics than any other reasons.

I guess I am just having a hard time comprehending that a person that does electric work as a hobby has found a better way to do it than the 60,000 or so ECs in the USA.

Have you ever tried to run EMT through wood studs?

Hope you have a large supply of couplings. ;)

I may well be wrong -- I'm willing to admit that. And I don't think it's a "better" way, in the general sense of "better way". I think it's a way that will work in what's a difficult environment under difficult circumstances. There are a lot of choices with Romex that I think create problems who lack professional (or "committed hobbyist" ;) ) experience. I think this idea of mine will make things better by limiting the choices that are creating the problems.

And yes, I've run EMT through wood studs. I've also run FMC through wood studs. And a lot of Romex through wood studs. Romex is, by far, much easier. If I were doing it, I'd use Romex. Romex rocks. But for me to do it, I'd have to quit my day job and move several hundred miles.
 

emahler

Senior Member
up here we pull grounds in our conduit anyway. But from what I was reading is that Tallgirl is worrying about the wrong wiring being installed, or being installed improperly, and not getting inspected before sheetrock goes up.

ENT allows you to install the framework easier than EMT, and pull the wiring in later. It would help to eliminate the issues she's appears to be worried about.

It also allows for MAC's much easier than NM or AC/MC.

Shoot for that matter, just use greenfield instead of EMT. That would work better for you than ENT, no.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
emahler said:
shoot, if you are in favor of emt, you'd be better of using smurf tube (ENT). Especially if you are in a wood framed structure. It allows you the advantages of EMT without all the drawbacks.

Smurf tube would be good if we could get people to understand that they can't put a conductor through a wooden wall less than 1 1/4" from the face of the stud without a steel plate to protect it.

Sadly, no one has been able to get that message across.

(And for the poster who suggested using Greenfield, I think it would have all the problems of Romex and all the added expense of EMT.)
 
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tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
In re, prints, differing wire sizes, etc.

We don't have prints -- we have houses. Which, given my experience are better than prints :) I can read and draw prints. A lot of volunteer types can't.

I also think we need to avoid as many choices as can be avoided. And that means limiting the number of gauges and conductor counts of wire, limiting the sizes of boxes, limiting the lengths and shapes of everything that can be limited. Expecting someone to know the difference between 12/2, 12/3, 14/2, 8/2, 8/3, etc. is expecting too much. A lot of wire that you and I know is different is all the same to them. It's just wire and it magically carries electricity. Telling someone to install 6/2 or whatever for a range could easily result in them running 12/2 or 14/2 because that range outlet is near the floor, just like the outlet on the other side of the room.

Y'all are all very smart and very experienced and very professional. Now, imagine being none of those and you have a clue what kind of people we get.
 

Bob NH

Senior Member
If I were trying to put a lot of people to work putting in pipe, I would consider 1/2" PVC. It is flexible enough to easily run through holes in studs if the holes are lined up, and you can put a lot of THHN in it. The ampacity of #12 and #14 THHN is high enough to permit as many as 9 current carrying conductors in it before the derating gets you to the 15 and 20 amp small condutor limits. And you can put as many as eleven #14 or eight #12 in a 1/2" conduit.

You may have a lot of neophytes, but you may also have a lot of people who know what they are doing but are not licensed. You need at least one of those people with each team. If I were on such a job I would start with a short training session, and then start marking places for people to install boxes, drill holes, and run conduit, wires, etc.

That leader needs to be instructing and answering questions, and avoid doing the work except as a training example.
 

iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
don_resqcapt19 said:
emahler,

No it doesn't...ENT provides no more physical protection than does NM..Don

I do not use ENT but have to disagree with that statement.

To me that is like saying RMC provides no more protection than EMT.

Yes ENT is soft plastic like NM, but it is tougher to damage.

If the installer follows the rules in the NEC either of these products should be out of reach of damage.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
don_resqcapt19 said:
emahler,
... if you are in favor of emt, you'd be better of using smurf tube (ENT). It allows you the advantages of EMT without all the drawbacks.
No it doesn't...ENT provides no more physical protection than does NM..it also is not an EGC.
Don
ENT has its own set of advantages and disadvantages, as does every wiring method. While ENT provides no more physical protection than EMT, it does provide more protection than NM. Being non-metallic in nature, of course it is not an EGC. But all EMT installations I've done in at least the last ten years have had an EGC wire pulled, even though not required by NEC.

I believe the key advantage emahler was trying to point out was the semi-flexible nature of ENT. An advantage which would not require the time, equipment, and skill to bend offsets in EMT.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
Bob NH said:
If I were trying to put a lot of people to work putting in pipe, I would consider 1/2" PVC. It is flexible enough to easily run through holes in studs if the holes are lined up, and you can put a lot of THHN in it. The ampacity of #12 and #14 THHN is high enough to permit as many as 9 current carrying conductors in it before the derating gets you to the 15 and 20 amp small condutor limits. And you can put as many as eleven #14 or eight #12 in a 1/2" conduit.

Half-inch PVC has a nice fill count for typical 120v 20A BCs. I have some concerns about PVC and had written it off as "likely to create problems". I'll have to give it some more thought, I suppose.

I have a LOT of reservations, though, about running PVC horizontally through studs. I've had bad experiences with people not being able to keep holes centered in studs and I'd be very concerned about drywall screws going through PVC. There are parts of the code that give me nightmares, but nothing frightens me as much as someone putting a nail through a conductor. That might be a problem I can fix by making a jig to aid in drill bit placement.

Oh, and thanks a lot for all your feedback. There are people who will be very grateful for everything you've all written here.

I'll bring the rest of your advice forward as I try implementing this.
 
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Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
tallgirl said:
Thanks -- that explains the brain mush.

I'm trying to figure out how to lay out a 2" offset using a pair of 22 1/2 degree angles, then a length of tubing, followed by an 8" offset using a pair of 30 degree angles and my brain won't let me.
In commercial rough out (i.e. metal framing) we use Caddy CS812 Screw On Conduit Support, listed for wood or metal, to save time and forego an offset at the box, running the conduit straight up...


(image is linked to product page)​

Assuming you are looking at offsetting 8" at the top plate to get the "poke through" in the center of the wall cavity, I have to ask why you don't just run the conduit straight up through the top plate so no bending is required?
 
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