Panel in the Clothes Closet

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360Youth

Senior Member
Location
Newport, NC
electricmanscott said:
A mechanical room is NOT a closet so I don't know what the problem here is. :confused:

You are NEVER covered against anything. Just ask a lawyer.

I meant construed as a clothes closet by the insp. before CO. If the insp. OKs it for a panel location now, they can't tag me for it later.
 

blue spark

Senior Member
Location
MN
iwire said:
I agree but think it is a ridiculous requirement.

In my area most panels are in basements, most of those basements are packed with easily ignitable material so whats the difference if there is the required 110.26 space?

Loose wording in the book at best but FWIW I thinks it's a bad design issue to start with. What is a closet intended for? The storage of clothes. Most clothes are flamable. So the door is closed and since it's not a habitable room, there's no smoke detector. If there is a fire you're not going to know until it's burning well fed. Yes there's the argument that wherever you put the panel, someone will throw stuff in front of it. However I go back to the intent of the closet. Second, who wants to service a panel in a tight space like that? Cover your butt and get the AHJ to sign off on it but I think it's a bad idea.
 
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finhead

Senior Member
Thanks for the comments. It's always fascinating to entertain such a wide range of thoughts.

Brian Dolan
 

mthead

Senior Member
Location
Long Beach,NY
I'm surprised that there is this much confusion re ; this code rule--When 240-24[d]says"such as clothes closets" it is not an ambiguous statement-clothes closets is the easiest example they could give you as to ONE place it is not allowed.The intent was to steer you in the right directionthrough the use of this 1st example.If that is to vague then perhaps each and every possibilityt can be written out and we can add another 30 pages or so to the code on just this one rule.
People can allways do something to negate the usefulness or safety of installation rules--that doesn't mean we throw up our hands and say "Oh Well.Why bother".
That's what makes any one of us a "Qualified Person" as opposed to the h/owner-we're supposed to know better.
So as to avoid any confusion the "NEW YORK STATE RESIDENTIAL CODE 2002" spells it out sectionRE3305.1[d]"panelboards,service equipment and similar enclosures shall NOT BE LOCATED IN BATHROOMS,TOILET ROOMS AND CLOTHES CLOSETS".
And for those who would be traumitized by what constitutes a "similar enclosure" there are inspectors who will hold your hand and get you thru the nightmare of all that that might encompass.
To me semantics and word twisting is a game best played by lawyers ,who will gladly play it with you in court when given a chance.The code is the minimumsafety guide line---don't try to make it even less.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
mthead said:
I'm surprised that there is this much confusion re ; this code rule--When 240-24[d]says"such as clothes closets" it is not an ambiguous statement-clothes closets is the easiest example they could give you as to ONE place it is not allowed.

That is simply another opinion, it is not a code fact.

Don't take that wrong, my posts are simply my opinion, they are also not code facts.

It will be up to the AHJ to determine what 'such as' means. If I was the AHJ I doubt I would allow panels in closets but at the same time I would not say never. Some clothes closets are bigger than my living room and if some one had a reasonable panel installation in that large space I see no reason not to allow it.
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
mthead said:
I And for those who would be traumitized by what constitutes a "similar enclosure" there are inspectors who will hold your hand and get you thru the nightmare of all that that might encompass.


Well that was not necessary. :rolleyes: Must be nice to be all knowing.
 

dnem

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
electricmanscott said:
Exactly. a Bathroom is specifically prohibited. A closet is not.

Yep

dcspector said:
Bob, I will go along with you on that. Wherever one installs a panel...Heck a garage and one stores gas cans below it?

Since we?re talking interpretation, logic is needed and dcspectors logic is solid. . I have yet to see a gas can in a clothes closet and very rarely see a smoke detector in the garage. . So the flammability of clothes isn?t more than the flammability of the gas in the garage. . And the lack of a smoke in the closet isn?t any different than the lack of a smoke in the garage.

I would consider the in-swinging door to be an effective barrier to stacking/hanging ignitibles in front of the panel.

I?ll go one farther. . We accept panels in clothes closets that are not walk-in and do not have in-swinging doors even with a clothes hanging bar. . We accept it as long as they build a ?false wall? parallel and a couple if inches behind the doors [which would then need a return wall to the closet back wall] and mount the panel in that ?false wall?. . They can then mount their clothes bar to the side of the return wall and use the remaining part of the closet for clothes.

PS Why does my spellchecker want to change ignitibles to ignitables ?

David
 

mthead

Senior Member
Location
Long Beach,NY
panel in clothes closet

panel in clothes closet

Yes that might have been harsh--I'd had a rough day when I was writing my post .As to comment #2 it is just my cross to bear elec.mansct--..
 

tonyou812

Senior Member
Location
North New Jersey
ahh clothes closets and panels. that brings back fond memories of this insanelly packed closet one time in this remodel that involved most of the house. we had to belly crawl over all her coats and clothes and crap. it was crazy she litterally had no place to put her stuff and she already had a ton of crap in storage. yea dont put panels in closets its almost never a good idea
 

russ

Senior Member
Location
Burbank IL
On some remodels or revisions location often is a problem that requires allowances.

This is a new building, and design is not exactly and inspectors big worry. I'd tell them to spin the panel around and let it face in to the room.
Brian, I assume your in plan review stage. I'd tell them to turn it.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
clothes closets

clothes closets

a long discussion at a regional meeting of State Inspectors in TN brought about a game plan that allowed panels in clothes closets that were large enough to accomodate a "partition" providing a 30" space in front of the panel. An assumption on my part, but I would think behind the door would satisfy the same requirement.
The argument here, right or wrong, resulted in the decision that the prohibition was "in vinicity of easily ignitable materials" and not necessarily clothes clsets.
 

blue spark

Senior Member
Location
MN
dnem said:
Yep



I have yet to see a gas can in a clothes closet and very rarely see a smoke detector in the garage. . So the flammability of clothes isn?t more than the flammability of the gas in the garage. . And the lack of a smoke in the closet isn?t any different than the lack of a smoke in the garage.

David
I guess I don't see the logic there but.....Never put a smoke in a garage by the way.. Always install a high-heat sensor there. Exhaust
:rolleyes:
 
Has anyone read the definition of a clothes closet as it relates to storage space and combustibles?

It's spelled out in 410-8. (a)

It's tells you what is the designated storage space in a closet, or where they think combustionable items will likely be stored, it's even drawn out for us.

In small closets there would be no way to get a subpanel in there according to this definition, but if you have a large walk-in closet there could be plenty of room to install a subpanel and have the clearances required to be safe.

Take a read and see what you guys think.

Deron.
 
Has anyone read 410-8. (a) as it gives us insite to a closet and storage space?

It spells out the definition of a clothes closet stroage space, where they are saying combustionables are located. They do this because they are describing where it is acceptible to locate a fixture. This fixture unlike a subpanel will produce fire if located too close to combustionable things.

If they allow a fixture that will produce fire if it is close enough to combustionables in a closet, surely a subpanel that has combustionables stacked against it is a million times safer then a hot bulb up against some clothes.

Deron.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Deron, welcome to the forum. :)

I think that a luminaire is a constant source of moderate heat.

A panelboard could be a source of extreme heat during a fault. That panelboard could sit there behind the rod with clothes packed up against it forever under normal conditions will no ill effect, true.

But now cast a flash out the face of the panelboard on a combustible shirt...

Also, bear in mind that 410 is only applicable to luminaires - we can't really use the figure for panelboard placement, panelboards are not governed by Article 410. :)
 
Thanks for the welcome, happy to be here.

Why would the description of a storage area in a closet only apply to lights, does the definition of the stroage area change when there is a subpanel or any other electrical item in there? My understanding of a description is it applies in all cases.

I will agree that a panel that has no covers on it and has a major fault occur could start a fire if it is close enough to combustionable materials. But, why does the code go into so much detail about a closet and the location of a light if a lights are only moderate sources of heat? I'm thinking these lights in closets were and still are (if not installed properly) a big problem with fires.

I would bet if lights were not necessary so you could see in a closet they would have wrote this "shall not be located in closets".

Deron.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
deronmoped said:
Why would the description of a storage area in a closet only apply to lights, does the definition of the stroage area change when there is a subpanel or any other electrical item in there? My understanding of a description is it applies in all cases.
The reason is because of the "outline nature" of the code. In order for it to be effectively written, it is broken down into Chapters, Articles, Parts, and Sections.

The requirement we are looking at is located in Chapter 4, Article 410, Part II, Section 8(A). We call it 410.8(A).

Panelboards are covered in 408 and 409.

If this were an overall definition that covered panelboards (408), overcurrent devices (240), receptacles (406), switches (404), etc, then this definition would need to reside in Article 100 for it to have effect on those other articles and chapters.

For example, there is an ongoing discussion about "bundling" in the NEC. What does bundling mean? It is not defined in 100. It is defined elsewhere in the NEC, but it is not defined in a location usable by 310.15. They have been trying to do just that for a couple cycles now, because right now it is unclear exactly when we have to derate cables according to 310.15(B)(2)(a).

So, going back to 410.8(A), that definition only has a legal footfold inside it's own section, in 410.8(A). It doesn't even apply outside 410.8, unless a neighboring section chooses to borrow the definition by referencing it.

But, why does the code go into so much detail about a closet and the location of a light if a lights are only moderate sources of heat? I'm thinking these lights in closets were and still are (if not installed properly) a big problem with fires.

I would bet if lights were not necessary so you could see in a closet they would have wrote this "shall not be located in closets".
I think you answered your own question. They did write "no overcurrent devices in closets", writing panelboards out of closets completely (in their own incomplete way ;) ).

But lighting is desired (and arguably needed) in closets, so they had to find a way to make it safer without banning them completely. 410.8 is that attempt.

What do you think? :)
 
I'm still not sold on that panelboards are written out of clothes closets. I have not seen a article that says "there shall be no panels in clothes closets" like it is spelled out in "shall not be located in bathrooms". As far as I can see it is left up to the inspector to decide if a panel is in a bad place because it's close to combustionables.

Now if I was a inspector and I read the article that says "such as a clothes closest" and took that literly, then I would be forced to not allow panels inside buildings. I mean can you name a room in a house that will not have combustionable materials? Most rooms could have carpets, fabric covered furniture, drapes, throw rugs, wall hangings...

I actually would think a closet would be a better place to have a exploding panel. I mean would you rather have it next to your bed as you are sleeping so you can get sparyed with molten metal and plastic? Would you want to be the combustionable? Panels are installed in bedrooms all the time, if they are such a problem and a source of fires would you want your inspector saying "The babies room is a perfect location for a fire to start." NOT!

Deron.
 

dcspector

Senior Member
Location
Burke, Virginia
Well Deron. You are apparently not an Inspector. We enforce the "CODE" as written...with theory. I say this because, You said "IF I WERE AN INSPECTOR"...240.24(D) pretty much sums it up....."Such as a CLOTHES CLOSET"
 
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