permanent cooking provisions

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I have student suites dorm rooms. Four bedrooms, bathroom and a refridgerator and a built-in microwave attached to the bottom of a cabinet. Is this permanent cooking provisions or would it have to be a range.
 

charlie b

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Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
I heard arguments both ways. My opinion is that a built-in microwave counts as "permanent provisions for cooking." But the only opinion that matters is the AHJ. Welcome to the forum.
 

steve66

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Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
I would consider that permenant cooking provisions. IMO, all the heartaches that go with a dwelling would be involved (arc fault breakers, etc.)

Hope that doesn't take you up to 70 hrs. per week:)

Steve
 
Yeah it's interesting, when questioned about the receptacle placement meeting code the architect said they used 210.60, but at the sametime chose to go with arc fault breakers for the bedrooms. Thanks for the help, maybe it will be only a 40 hr week this week.;)
 

M. D.

Senior Member
If a cord connected microwave is to be considered permanent because it is attached to the cabinet ,.. then this seems to fit the definition of a dwelling.

I tend to view the micro attached in such a way as I do those portable power taps that are fastened to a work bench. Fastened but not permanent.

Dwelling unit

A single unit ,providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation
 

iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
If a cord connected microwave is to be considered permanent because it is attached to the cabinet ,.. then this seems to fit the definition of a dwelling.

I tend to view the micro attached in such a way as I do those portable power taps that are fastened to a work bench. Fastened but not permanent.

My home has a range and refrigerator that both easily removed, does that mean I do not live in a dwelling unit?
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Well,... I used the word "tend" for a reason,.. My cooking appliances are hard wired ,..but I think you could make an argument:smile:

From a 2007 WESTERN SECTION MEETING CODE PANEL MEMBERS By Jim Pauley – CMP 2 and TCC I do believe

CMP 2 has clarified on more than one occasion that it did not consider a cord and plug connected microwave as permanent provisions for cooking. If the AHJ agrees that it does not meet the definition, you would follow the rules for non-dwelling units.
 
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iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
I have to look again, but I believe the definition of Dwelling is different in the State Codes than the NEC.

But we are not talking about building codes we are talking about the NEC rules. :smile:

When trying to apply the NEC and the NEC provides a definition we have to use it. If the NEC was silent about what a dwelling is then I think we would have to look to the building codes.


Well,... I used the word "tend" for a reason,.. My cooking appliances are hard wired ,..but I think you could make an argument:smile:

From a 2007 WESTERN SECTION MEETING CODE PANEL MEMBERS By Jim Pauley ? CMP 2 and TCC I do believe

CMP 2 has clarified on more than one occasion that it did not consider a cord and plug connected microwave as permanent provisions for cooking. If the AHJ agrees that it does not meet the definition, you would follow the rules for non-dwelling units.

Which goes directly to my point, all my kitchen appliances are cord and plug connected so I guess CMP 2 and the TCC believe I do not live in a dwelling unit. :D
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Bob I think there was a proposal for 2008 that would have eliminated the distinction between a counter mounted cooktop and a toaster, from the definition of dwelling unit,.. it did not make it in...
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Here is the ROC . It was put on hold. They see the problem, I'm just not sure it is wise to include a toaster... waffle iron George foreman grill etc... you may as well say if it has got sanitation a place to sleep and a receptacle outlet it is a dwelling .

If I wire a guest room ,.. and there is no toaster while I'm engaged ,.... yet one appears after inspection ,.. has a violation occurred ,. and does it make any noise when it falls??? Gooooood Grief



-28 Log #689 NEC-P0 Final Action: Hold
(100. Dwelling Unit)
_____________________________________________________________
TCC Action: After reviewing the entire record, including the existing
rules in 210.18 and 210.60, the Technical Correlating Committee directs
that Comment 1-28 and Proposal 1-27 be reported as ?Hold? for review
during the 2011 revision cycle. Although the revised definition is suitable
for application in NFPA 101 and 5000, the lack of other occupancies being
defined in the NEC (such as dormitories, rooming houses, etc.) creates
a concern for how the definition will be applied in the application of the
NEC.
Submitter: Timothy M. Croushore, Allegheny Power
Comment on Proposal No: -27
Recommendation: Please reject the original proposal.
Substantiation: The proposed statement in the substantiation that ?the
definition does not change the intent of any of the codes...? is not correct.
Rather, adding the new term ?housekeeping purposes? introduces a new
concept that is not currently in any of the NFPA standards. Deleting the term
?permanent provisions for...? eliminates a long standing clarification for
cooking between a portable microwave oven and an installed cook-top in
a counter top.
Also, the revised definition would now have all guest rooms
of hotels and motels and college dormitories as dwelling units. The revised
definition does not add clarity to the definition of dwelling unit. Rather, it
changes the definition.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The panel is eliminating the distinction between portable
microwave ovens (as well as toaster-ovens and similar appliances) and
installed cooktops, as many dwelling units do not contain permanent cooking
appliances.
The panel is also including those hotel rooms and dormitory rooms
that meet the proposed definition among ?dwelling units?.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
5-3 Log #67 NEC-P05 Final Action: Accept
(100. Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC))
_____________________________________________________________
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
Which goes directly to my point, all my kitchen appliances are cord and plug connected so I guess CMP 2 and the TCC believe I do not live in a dwelling unit. :D

No offense intended to CMP 2 but if they wanted to "clarified on more than one occasion that it did not consider a cord and plug connected microwave as permanent provisions for cooking" it should be in the code.

As far as what the code says it's a judgment call on permanent. On MH DVDs he stated that if you have a room with a provided plugged in microwave he thinks you have a permanent provision for cooking.

As far as the dorm. IMHO if you have a cooking unit provided by the dorm it's permanent. If the kids sneek in hot plates (in my school hot plates were against the rule due to fires) then it is not :smile:
 
But we are not talking about building codes we are talking about the NEC rules. :smile:

When trying to apply the NEC and the NEC provides a definition we have to use it. If the NEC was silent about what a dwelling is then I think we would have to look to the building codes.




Which goes directly to my point, all my kitchen appliances are cord and plug connected so I guess CMP 2 and the TCC believe I do not live in a dwelling unit. :D



I cannot speak for other States, in NY, the building codes rule, as the NEC has not been adopted as a code, it is only a standard. So, we follow the State definitions for such things as dwelling, etc...
 
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