Kitchen Countertop Receptacles

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charlie b

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jeff43222 said:
It also doesn't show any side walls; rather, it shows how close to the sink the receptacles need to be.
That is why I said that using this would not provide a strong case to support my point of view.
 

charlie b

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al hildenbrand said:
Looking to the use of the two words afforded by in context in the NEC, they show up exactly 5 additional times as reported by the NECH search engine.
Thanks for doing that research, Al. I no longer have a CDROM version of the code, so I can't do that myself.

You may note that the last four items on your list use the phrase "afforded by" in a logical manner that fits within the definition that Mike posted earlier. The first two items do not. I was not aware of the use of "afforded by" in article 550.13(G), but it is used in the same (meaningless) context as in 210.52(A)(2)(3).
 

charlie b

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jwelectric said:
Synonyms: allow, bear, incur, manage, spare, stand, support, sustain, bestow, furnish, grant, impart, offer, provide, render, supply, yield
Thanks for the list, Mike. Now let's try out the list:
  • Can or does a railing allow space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing bear space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing incur space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing manage space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing spare space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing stand space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing support space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing sustain space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing bestow space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing furnish space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing grant space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing impart space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing offer space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing provide space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing render space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing supply space? Nope.
  • Can or does a railing yield space? Nope.
I can only conclude that the use of "afforded by" in this context is meaningless. Thus, I would say the following to an AHJ: I infer that you (the AHJ) cannot force me (the design engineer) or my buddy (the electrical contractor) to place a floor receptacle near the railing. My reasoning is that the code does not state that the railing comprises a wall space. Rather, it states something meaningless about a space being somehow "afforded by" a railing.
 

al hildenbrand

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Charlie,

The two uses of "afforded by" in 210.52 and 550.13 are different because they appear in sentence fragments that are parts of a list. Combining the opening sentence before the list with one of the fragments will provide the missing verb.

Admittedly, I speak heresy, by rearranging the words. . . :twisted:

But by reading:
As used in this section, a wall space shall include The space WHICH IS afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings
the usage of "afforded by" is as logical as the other four usages.
 

charlie b

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Sorry, Al, but I guess I didn't make my point clear. It's not a matter of a missing verb, or of any other missing words. Adding "which is" to the sentence (heresy of not) does not alter (or provide meaning to) the sentence. Let me try to explain myself in another way.

Look at the last four uses of "afforded by" in the list you pulled from the NECH CDROM. All four have essentially the same basic meaning. You can provide (my word, not the NEC word) protection to a cable by placing a baseboard over the area in which a cable is run. Thus, protection for the cable is "afforded by" the baseboard. Please note that "provide" is one of the synonyms for "afford," as given to us by Mike's list. So those four sentences have meaning.

But in the context of 210.52 and 550.30, space is supposed to be "afforded by" a railing or a bar counter. A railing does not "provide space." All it does is to "occupy space." But that doesn't help, because "occupy" is not a synonym for "afford." The word "afford" just doesn't mean what these articles are trying to use it to mean.

Let me confess that I believe the intent of the code authors is that a railing counts as a wall, and that we must put receptacles on the railing (or more likely on the floor near the railing). Yes, I believe that is what they want. But they chose a particularly abysmal word (i.e., "afforded") to describe what they want.
 

dlhoule

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What I find a little strange in all of this is the fact that if the counter ends at a wall & is 25" it is required to have a receptacle. If counter ends without a wall no receptacle is required. I am referring to a side wall. :)
 

charlie b

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dlhoule said:
. . . strange . . . that if the counter ends at a (side) wall & is 25" it is required to have a receptacle.
Required by whom? Back on Page 2, Jeff mentioned that he has had inspectors require that. But I think it is not common, and I think it is not right. So I agree with you when you call it "strange."
 

George Stolz

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dlhoule said:
What I find a little strange in all of this is the fact that if the counter ends at a wall & is 25" it is required to have a receptacle. If counter ends without a wall no receptacle is required. I am referring to a side wall. :)
I agree, that is interesting. What does the walled counter have that the unwalled counter doesn't? :p
 

allenwayne

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A wall comes to mind.If the counter top extends beyond the wall and ends (open ended)at that point it would be a penninsula.But 210.52 C 1 is written that.A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each WALL counter space so on and so forth.The word wall in regards to counter space specificly says wall counter space.So if if it open ends and stops even with a wall, then none would be required on the 25 in. open ended counter.But as it is written an inspector could and some do require them on the 25 in. side when there is a wall along that measurement.
I agree it is a non necessary receptacle and when I lay out a kitchen I usually don`t include that portion of the counter top, unless I am in an area where I know the inspector requires them.I know of 3 inspectors in three seperate municipalities that will require them.So they are installed in these areas.
 

al hildenbrand

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Charlie, while you assert that
Charlie B said:
A railing does not "provide space." All it does is to "occupy space."
I submit all you are doing is focusing on the wrong definition of "afforded by".

Charlie B said:
Go find a really big dictionary and look up the word "afford" and any of its derivative forms (such as "afforded"). Then tell me in what way space is "afforded by" a railing.
OK.

From Webster's Third New International Dictionary the entire definition of afford follows (minus pronounciation guides):
af∙ford

vt -ED/-ING/-S [ME aforthen, fr. OE geforthian to carry out, accomplish, further, fr. ge- (perfective prefix) + forthian to carry out, fr. forth forth, forward ? more at CO-, FORTH]

1 a : to manage to bear without serious detriment ? used with infinitve <a dictionary of an ancient language can ~ to embrace everything that can be called a word ? R. W. Chapman> <you can't ~ to get out of balance ? Lou Smyth> <most of us, however, can well ~ to look critically at our writing ? Milton Hall> <she could ? to be generous with Irene ? Louis Auchincloss>

1 b : to manage to pay for or incur the cost of ,no country, however rich, can ~ the waste of its juman resources ? F. D. Roosevelt> <people who can ~ leisure sit in cafes by the hour ? W. P. Webb> <our failure to recognize and foster promising students who cannot ~ college ? Douglas Bush> <we can ~ only those threats that we are ready to carry out ? New Republic>

2 a :GIVE, FURNISH <history ~s us a wealth of examples ? John Strachey> <an old building with grillwork elevators ~ing passengers a view of the cable ? J. F. Powers> ? sometimes used with to <their business is not to praise their age, but to ~ to the men who live in it the highest pleasure they are capable of feeling ? Matthew arnold> <the bill was a measure necessary to ~ protection to labor as well as industry ? Current Biog.>

2 b : to furnish or offer typically or as an essential concomitant <apartments are small and ~ very little living space ? D. P. O'Mahonn>
<by the great distribution ~ed by the printing press ? R. A. Hall b. 1911>

3 archaic : to sell at a particular price
A printing press is a heavy stationary object without wheels (commonly) and all it does is print copies. A printing press, in no way distributes the copies. . .the press is physically incapable of distribution. The press does not
allow, bear, incur, manage, spare, stand, support, sustain, bestow, furnish, grant, impart, offer, provide, render, supply, yield
distribution, in the sense that you have phrased it earlier . . .but there is distribution afforded by the printing press using definition 2 b : above.

While this use of afford is not common, it is still in the dictionary, and, in my experience, understandable and clear. . .and a far cry from your label of "meaningless".

Admittedly, a railing takes up space. In so doing, we are (by the CMPs assumed intent) directed to see this as a boundary line in a single space separating the former single space into space which is on THIS SIDE and space which is on THAT SIDE of the railing.

The railing does not have a predetermined length for the purposes of the Code passage, nor can it have. So, whether the railing length completely surrounds the space, bisects the space, or is some length less than that, its existence in the former single space, changes the boundary of the space, just as the existence of the printing press changes the distribution of printed material.
 

iwire

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While I agree that railing takes up space at the same time it affords a 'space' to measure along the floor line to determine if a receptacle is required. :wink:
 

JohnE

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I'm jumping into this one late. Took a while to read all posts.

To answer OP, I would consider chimney as side walls on 2 counter spaces and would not require receptacles on chimney.

Charlie, without even venturing in to railing debate, I can't believe that you feel that a brick wall section (one wall of a chimney) is not wallspace. You feel that if chimney were 12' wide floor to ceiling, it does not require a receptacle?

I'm still trying to digest the "afford" argument.

John
 

dlhoule

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Michigan
The following is out of 210.52
(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed so that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.

(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:

(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings

(2) The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls, excluding sliding panels

(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings

If you walk up a stairway onto a balcony with a railing on the right hand side, with railing continuing from stair to wall opposite stairs.

The wall is 6' 2" from top of stairs. Now are we required to surface mount on railing or mount in floor at top of stairs a totally useless receptacle.
It looks to me like the code is asking for this, but I seriously doubt many inspectors would enforce it.
 

al hildenbrand

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dlhoule said:
If you walk up a stairway onto a balcony with a railing on the right hand side, with railing continuing from stair to wall opposite stairs.

The wall is 6' 2" from top of stairs. Now are we required to surface mount on railing or mount in floor at top of stairs a totally useless receptacle.

If the space at the top of the stairs is hallway, in part or whole, then, I think the AHJ will see something that s/he will feel free to interpret.

But, for the sake of simplifying. . .say the space at the top of the stairs that you are describing is singly and only a bed space. When one steps from the top step to the floor, bounded on one side by a 6' 2" railing, one is now in the bedroom (or some other room), and, then, I think the railing requires an outlet within six foot of the start of the wall at the edge of the stair entry into the space (I imagine the entry like a doorway).
 

dlhoule

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Al, I'm glad you mentioned some other room, because I like to think of bedrooms as having some privacy, which a railing does not.

Now suppose you mount a receptacle in floor or on railing at the top of stairs. Now at this point I think everything would be fine (in most cases).
However at some point someone may plug something into it, and when this happens the next person going down the stairs may do it head first from tripping over cord or plug.

My question is which way is safer?
I do believe the code calls for it and if inspector makes me put it in, I am putting it right at top of stairs because I've already got one 6'2" away. :D :D
 

charlie b

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allenwayne said:
If the counter top extends beyond the wall and ends (open ended) at that point it would be a peninsula.
I had a house in which the kitchen countertop had nothing on its right hand side (i.e., no side wall). There was "wall space" behind every inch of the countertop, but the "wall space" to the right of this countertop was the exit door to the back porch. So I would not have called that part of the counter a "peninsula." If some inspector said that the side of the counter had to be included in the calculation of "wall space," there would have been no place to place a receptacle.
 

charlie b

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al hildenbrand said:
2 b : to furnish or offer typically or as an essential concomitant <by the great distribution ~ed by the printing press ? R. A. Hall b. 1911>

. . . just as the existence of the printing press changes the distribution of printed material.
The existence of the printing press made it possible to print a lot more copies than was possible beforehand (i.e., when copies could only be made by hand). The press "furnished" a method for making more copies. It did not "furnish" space. Nor does a railing.

2 b : . . . apartments are small and ~ very little living space ? D. P. O'Mahonn>
This definition does not fit the situation of a railing in the middle of a room. An apartment might "furnish" (or "afford") very little living space. But an apartment can do that because it has walls. The space that it furnishes, the space that it affords, is within the boundaries of those walls.

A railing does not "furnish" space in this context. It merely occupies its own space, without creating a boundary around any other space. Find a dictionary that includes "occupy" as one of the definitions of "afford," and I'll walk away happy. Until then, I remain convinced that a railing does not "afford" space in any context.

al hildenbrand said:
So . . . (the railing's) existence in the former single space, changes the boundary of the space. . . .
As I have already conceded, that is what the code authors intended to convey. But the word "afforded" does not convey that meaning.
 

charlie b

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j_erickson said:
Charlie . . . I can't believe that you feel that a brick wall section (one wall of a chimney) is not wallspace. You feel that if chimney were 12' wide floor to ceiling, it does not require a receptacle?
Can you believe that I feel that if there were a brick chimney in the middle of a sheet-rock wall, then the two sheet-rocked sections each comprise a wall, but the chimney does not?

If a wall were entirely made of brick, and if there were a fireplace on the other side of the wall, so that part of the brick is used to create a chimney, and if it were therefore hard to discern what was "wall" and what was "chimney," it would probably be best to treat the entire thing as a "wall," for the purposes of placing receptacles. But that was not the original question.
 

al hildenbrand

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charlie b said:
al hildenbrand said:
2 b : to furnish or offer typically or as an essential concomitant <by the great distribution ~ed by the printing press ? R. A. Hall b. 1911>

. . . just as the existence of the printing press changes the distribution of printed material.
The existence of the printing press made it possible to print a lot more copies than was possible beforehand (i.e., when copies could only be made by hand). The press "furnished" a method for making more copies. It did not "furnish" space. Nor does a railing.

Charlie,

You are still not expanding your focus on the definition.

Consider ALL of 2 b :

That is to furnish or offer typically or as an essential concomitant.

Or, more succinctly, to offer as an essential concomitant.
?con∙com∙i∙tant : accompanying or attending esp. in a subordinate or incidental way : occurring along with or at the same time as and with or without causal relationship
 
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