No GFCI in existing apartment building

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chelin

Member
Location
St. Paul, MN
I have a friend who just moved to an apartment in Minnesota (St Paul area). He realized that the receptacles on the countertop of the kitchen and the one on the bathroom are not GFCI protected, checked the main panel and there's no AFCI. He wants to makethe building management replace the receptacles with GFCIs and the circuit breaker for bedrooms to AFCI. Does anyone knows if there's a building code or if the currnet NEC 210.8 and 210.12 is sufficient to make them do it?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
The electrical code is not retroactive.

The lack of GFCIs or AFCIs is not a violation today if it was not a violation when the building was built.

AFCIs only came in with the 1999 code.

Kitchen counter GFCis have not been required for very long.

And if the building was built before the 70s there where likely no GFCIs required.
 

davidr43229

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Oh
While the above posters have so stated that GFCI's are not required, for the money and if I and my family (children) lived there, I would install them, rental or not...
 

wbalsam1

Senior Member
Location
Upper Jay, NY
Does your state have a model code?

Does your state have a model code?

Perhaps your State adopted the International Family of Codes. Most states have now. If so, the Property Maintenance Code requires any newly installed receptacle in a bathroom to be gfci protected. Check your State Codes Department or with the International Codes Council to see. Typically there'll be a section that says something like this: "Where it is found that the electrical system in a structure constitutes a hazard to the occupants or the structure by reason of inadequate service, improper fusing, insufficient receptacle and lighting outlets, improper wiring or installation, deterioration or damage, or for similar reasons, the defects SHALL be corrected to eliminate the hazard." There's nothing about afci, yet.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Probably not gonna happen NEC or not.

I think the place you really need to be looking is in the LL/T laws or building/fire codes. Some states have a requirement that certain items be "brought up to code" at various times.
For example, in NJ in a multi-family building(MFB) consisting of 3 or more floors, the common stairwells/areas need emergency lighting w/battery back-up. A MFB of 2 stories or less does not have this same requirement. This inspection usually takes place every 5 years and is performed by the fire department.

Also , in NJ of course, whenever property is sold, there must be an inspection (Continued Certificate of Occupancy ~ CCO). The city (building dept.) performs the CCO inspection and the property ownership cannot be transferred until the "violations" are addressed, completed and the property is iussed a CCO . Number one item on the list: No GFCI's in kitchen, bath and exterior.

Don't look to the NEC here...the NEC is not valid at this point in the discussion. You need to find the law that says look to the NEC.
 
davidr43229 said:
While the above posters have so stated that GFCI's are not required, for the money and if I and my family (children) lived there, I would install them, rental or not...


I do not think this is sound advice. You have good intentions, but fooling with the buildings wiring without permission could create more problems for you than may be anticipated, as this is private property.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I agree with Bob.

I usually get a call on this about once a week from a realtor or home inspector.

1971-Pool lights and around pools
1976-exterior outlets
1979-bathroom outlets
1982-garages
1987-within 6' of kitchen sink
1993-wet bar sinks
1996-all outdoor reeceptacles including balconies, all kitchen counter receptalces
 

davidr43229

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Oh
I do not think this is sound advice. You have good intentions, but fooling with the buildings wiring without permission could create more problems for you than may be anticipated, as this is private property
Pierre,
I was talking about the GFCIs only, not a total renovation, providing he has a 3 wire system.
Just my $.02
 

muskiedog

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
If you are that worried.

If you are that worried.

If you are that worried then get your self a bunch of GFCi extension cords to plug in your equipment. If you expect a landlord to upgrade when they do not have to HA.

If you change it your self and the building burns down who are they going after? You.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
cowboyjwc said:
I agree with Bob.


1976-exterior outlets
1979-bathroom outlets
1982-garages receptalces
1996- all kitchen counter receptalces

1976-exterior outlets I show this in my 1971 NEC 210-22 (d)
1979-bathroom outlets I show this in my 1978 NEC 210-8 (a) (1)
1982-garages I show this in my 1981 210-8 (a) (2)
1999-KITCHEN I show this in my 1996 210-8 (A) (5)
 
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brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
I may be speaking out of turn on this issue, but I would be careful doing work unauthorized. Your insurance company may frown on paying out dollars for unauthorized work.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
muskiedog said:
This statement would apply to any and every job I do thats why I carry Liability insurance.
wireman3736 said:
This statement would apply to any and every job I do thats why I carry Liability insurance.

Some areas, like mine, REQUIRE a permit for a GFCI install - just the device.
It's not "enough" to have the ins., you must also be bonded, have a business permit AND file the work permit ....
...to say "JUST DO IT", does not address any of the laws that may/may not be required in the OP's question.
 

wireman3736

Senior Member
Location
Vermont/Mass.
celtic said:
Some areas, like mine, REQUIRE a permit for a GFCI install - just the device.
It's not "enough" to have the ins., you must also be bonded, have a business permit AND file the work permit ....
...to say "JUST DO IT", does not address any of the laws that may/may not be required in the OP's question.

There's also some area's that don't require any of those things that you have mentioned.:)
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
wireman3736 said:
There's also some area's that don't require any of those things that you have mentioned.:)

Oh yes I know:
celtic said:
...to say "JUST DO IT", does not address any of the laws that may/may not be required in the OP's question.

I am not familiar with the rules in the St. Paul, MN area ;)
 

muskiedog

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
I have the book right in front of me for Minnesota.

I have the book right in front of me for Minnesota.

I have been reviewing the laws and rules regulating licensing of electricians. We have had an on going issue on when a licensed electrician is required for performing such things as:

Changing out photo eyes on exterior light fixtures

Replacing ballsts on low voltage fixtures

Replace defective or worn out GFCI and standard outlets

Replacing light switches.

Our Board of Electricity now falls under the Department of Labor in Minnesota and from what I have been reading an unlicensed person would have to fall under the personal supervision of a person actually licensed to perform such work.

This issue came up with our Highway signal techs repairing stop lights cabinets, etc.. and Park maintenance staff doing basic upkeep.

My head hurts already on a Friday.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
I guess it depends how far he falls under the supervision...
brick.gif

(That ones for me :D )
 
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