Self-inspecting electricians

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S Gordon

Member
I saw this on another forum about an area in Canada (we're in Illinois) and it got the wheels turning upstairs. We're a service electrical firm that specializes in residential. I've proposed to several local jurisdictions a rough outline:

We, along with other partcipating electricians in the area, agree to a series of tests or classes, (along with future continuing education requirements) to verify our abilities as installers and our grasp of the code. We are then authorized to perform small electrical tasks for homeowners on an honor system. The honor system is similar to a manufacturer subject to UL spot inspections where an inspector from UL might say "pull 20 panels from that line and let's inspect them". We would have a permit form that we have the homeowner sign and collect from them the appropriate fee. An example might be "a ceiling fan permit is $25, sign here, that check goes to the city".

This could benefit all involved. The homeowner could say upon resale that all electrical work has been performed by a village-approved electrician. The municipality could make alot of money in fees they currently miss out on because of the economic unfeasibility of waiting between 9:00 AM and Noon for an inspector. It's not that we're not proud of our work or that we would take shortcuts, it's just not realistic. On larger jobs such as a complete service upgrade we might be given approval but yet subject to a "red tag" necessitating a repair. That would help prevent the unenviable position we're sometimes put in where the local utility won't hook-up, even though the inspection office closes at 5:00 and well, sometimes a complete service takes a while to do correctly and thoroughly.This method will probably aid a number of areas who've relied heavily upon new construction fees to finance operating costs for the Planning and Zoning departments but now find themselves overseeing an area that's built-out. Another benefit is a more educated work force given our non-existent continuing education requirements as electricians around here. Sadly, (not you people here, you're actually still interested) after some electricians get licensed they never pick up the book again.
The problem is I'm having is the fear factor around here, no one wants to rock the boat or be an experimental rat. So, anyone have working models of this or anything similar to it? Your help is appreciated.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
S Gordon said:
The municipality could make alot of money in fees they currently miss out on because of the economic unfeasibility of waiting between 9:00 AM and Noon for an inspector.

"economic unfeasibility of waiting" for whom?
The HO
The EC
The EI
 

S Gordon

Member
The cost that both the homeowner and installing electrician incur. I'm not pointing at the AHJ and saying they need to make themselves available when a minor installation is done. That's not realistic. But if you put up three ceiling fans and call for an inspection you will be put on the next day's schedule and I understand and respect that. But the client and I both sitting around for a few hours waiting, them missing work and me missing work somewhere else? The obvious response of most homeowners is "well why involve the city?". Sorry but I'm not gonna be the only electrician in town who demands inspections on little jobs. That doesn't mean I'm anti-code enforcement, just that I'm not registered as a non-profit.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
I think Washington State has a similar system, where the electrician purchases 'tickets' or 'tags' of some sort for minor work.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
mdshunk said:
I think Washington State has a similar system, where the electrician purchases 'tickets' or 'tags' of some sort for minor work.

Its a good start toward reduction of government interference in private enterprise.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
It sounds like what's needed is commercial inspectors.

Register for the inspection and whoever (amongst a pool of commercial inspectors) shows up wins the prize. That would open inspections up to market forces, and hopefully improve responsiveness, etc.
 

aja21

Member
Location
Nebraska
tallgirl said:
It sounds like what's needed is commercial inspectors.

Register for the inspection and whoever (amongst a pool of commercial inspectors) shows up wins the prize. That would open inspections up to market forces, and hopefully improve responsiveness, etc.
I understand that this is being done in many places already but my concern is who inspects the inspectors? What i mean is that a commercial inspector is inspecting for the purpose of profit. A municipal or state inspector is doing so for the protection of life and property.
What would happen if these tags were given and an inspector could inspect at a later scheduled time?
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
aja21 said:
I understand that this is being done in many places already but my concern is who inspects the inspectors? What i mean is that a commercial inspector is inspecting for the purpose of profit. A municipal or state inspector is doing so for the protection of life and property.
What would happen if these tags were given and an inspector could inspect at a later scheduled time?

you are making an unwarranted assumption here that is a slur to every inspector who is not a government employee.

the fact that government employed inspectors regularly go to jail for taking bribes ought to tell you just how wrong your assumption is.

take a look at most of the serious problems with inspections over the years and 9 times out of ten, you will find it was a government inspector that either didn't look, or looked the other way.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Los Angeles has a Self Inspection program for different things and most of the time it turns out to be a bad idea. Guys just start to get lazy and figure nobody's going to be looking at it anyways.

As inspectors we are just a second set of eyes. Most people think that all we do is drive around and look for a reason to write a correction notice. Now which do you think is easier for me? Signing the card because you did such a nice job, or going out to my truck and getting a notice and writing down a bunch of petty things (once you start writing you write everything) and then having to log all of that into the computer and going back to see if you fixed it?

Yes, of course it's not a perfect system, but we have the same problems you do. Show up for rough inspection and they are just starting to run conduit, "sorry thought we'd be ready". Show up for final and there are 10 guys still working and wire hanging out everywhere, "sorry the GC called and didn't tell us". Don't you think that that is a waste of our time? And of course that means it's taking time from someone else who is ready and sitting with the homeowner waiting for us to show up.
 

wanderer20001us

Senior Member
Self-inspection is obviously not suffucient. There is either the honest mistakes that are pointed out to everyone from time to time (which wouldn't be pointed out on a self-inspection), and then there are the intentional 'mistakes' to save a buck and improve profits at the cost of safety. Without an objective thrid party to review the work, public safety would rely solely on the knowledge and integrety of the installers. While I wish I could say that both come with the trade, the unfortunate truth is that is does not all the time.
 

aja21

Member
Location
Nebraska
petersonra said:
you are making an unwarranted assumption here that is a slur to every inspector who is not a government employee.

the fact that government employed inspectors regularly go to jail for taking bribes ought to tell you just how wrong your assumption is.

take a look at most of the serious problems with inspections over the years and 9 times out of ten, you will find it was a government inspector that either didn't look, or looked the other way.
Fair enough. I meant no disrespect to anyone in general and i guess I need to be more careful with my comments. I do agree with your statement regarding the slur to anyone who is not a government inspector. I believe your comment is a slur to anyone who is a government inspector.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
I just performed an electrical inspection (Power and Groundiing Inspection) for a customer, 3 shelters each about 500 SQ feet. This site is up and running and passed local inspection. 7 pages 39 discrepancies.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
aja21 said:
I understand that this is being done in many places already but my concern is who inspects the inspectors? What i mean is that a commercial inspector is inspecting for the purpose of profit. A municipal or state inspector is doing so for the protection of life and property.
What would happen if these tags were given and an inspector could inspect at a later scheduled time?

Ignoring all the comments that have flown around previously ...

Let's don't knock the profit motive. Find a way to threaten the commercial inspectors with loss of income, and I bet they stay sharp.

Back in the day, when I was doing computer security work, we had commercial evaluation facilities working for us. We paid them to verify our work. Their work was then checked by people from whatever government was overseeing the evaluation. All it would take for commercial inspections to stay (relatively) honest is random checks by the government inspectors -- if a commercial inspector shows up as having missed too many items, they get their inspectors license (or whatever) yanked.
 

jeff43222

Senior Member
cowboyjwc said:
Yes, of course it's not a perfect system, but we have the same problems you do. Show up for rough inspection and they are just starting to run conduit, "sorry thought we'd be ready". Show up for final and there are 10 guys still working and wire hanging out everywhere, "sorry the GC called and didn't tell us". Don't you think that that is a waste of our time? And of course that means it's taking time from someone else who is ready and sitting with the homeowner waiting for us to show up.
That kind of thing doesn't really screw things up in my area. If the job isn't ready, the inspector simply leaves and goes on to the next one on his schedule. Since he's usually running behind, this helps him make up a little time. He then sends a bill to the EC for an extra inspection trip.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I'm all for self inspection. Around here many inspections are a joke. Some guys are under investigation for doing drive by inspections without getting out of their car. If the EC is going to have all of the liability even after someone puts on a green sticker in a 60 second inspection who is helped by having this process in the first place?
 
Some notes about inspections - from both sides of the line.

Self certification will always work for the honest...to bad there are too many dishonest contractors, at least where I work.

Inspectors can be just like the contractors, not all are qualified, not all care. That is when the contractor really needs to be up on his/her code.


Whenever money/time (the same thing) is involved, both sides of the line will be tempted.

I cannot see how anyone would be willing to pay a fee for inspections, when no inspector is there to inspect...that would infuriate me.

As I see it, from being on both sides of the line, there is no easy answer.
With that said, until someone comes up with a better idea, status quo will prevail.

One last idea. I believe with proper training and fines/licenses revoked, that the possibility of self-certification may be plausible.
 

S Gordon

Member
I'm all for the "three strikes and you're out" approach. Ther would have to be a checks and balances system or yes, people will take advantage. I've seen work from electricians who normally do top notch stuff just have bad, bad days, (usually apprentices, right?).

My intention was never to say give us authorization and we'll never see each other again. There has to be verification of at least some work to keep the "listing", agreed.

Thanks for the link Steved, will research it.
 
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petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Pierre C Belarge said:
I cannot see how anyone would be willing to pay a fee for inspections, when no inspector is there to inspect...that would infuriate me.

Keep in mind that the largest part of the reason for the whole permitting/inspection process is to make sure government gets its property taxes, and you will understand a lot.

For those who continue to deride private inspectors, keep in mind that UL is private, and the work they do is pretty down right impressive.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
S Gordon said:
I'm all for the "three strikes and you're out" approach. Ther would have to be a checks and balances system or yes, people will take advantage.

That's the general idea. And what I've seen of this sort of process, it can work quite well -- if it's good enough for the federal government, it's good enough for me :grin:

I've seen work from electricians who normally do top notch stuff just have bad, bad days, (usually apprentices, right?).

Hey! I'll have you know that when I make mistakes I very quietly cover them up and then dispose of the bodies :cool:
 
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