existing range circuit

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NICK D

Member
Location
MINNESOTA
I Have An Existing Feeder Panel (subpanel) That Has An Existing Ser Cable With Two Ungrounded Conductors And One Uninsulated Bare Conductor That Feeds A 3 Wire Range. My Questions Are, Do You Install The Uninsulated Bare Conductor On The Ground Terminal Or The Nuetral Terminal And What Do If You Install A New 4 Wire Range. This Sounds Unsafe To Begin With Because I Think You Would Have Current Coming Back On A Bare Conductor?
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers.
Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be grounded in the manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.

Exception: For existing branch circuit installations only where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be grounded to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following conditions are met.
(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire; or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected system.
(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the service equipment.
(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of the equipment are bonded to the equipment.
 

NICK D

Member
Location
MINNESOTA
jwelectric said:
250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers.
Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be grounded in the manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.

Exception: For existing branch circuit installations only where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be grounded to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following conditions are met.
(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire; or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected system.
(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the service equipment.
(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of the equipment are bonded to the equipment.

THE BRANCH CIRCUIT DOESNT ORIGINATE AT THE SERVICE SO DO I REMOVE THIS SER CABLE BECAUSE IT IS UNSAFE.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
NICK D said:
Is This Installation Unafe? It Would Be A Nightmare To Run A New Wire.

It is not code compliant as as outlined in 90.1 I would deem it unsafe.

NICK D said:
I Have An Existing Feeder Panel (subpanel) That Has An Existing Ser Cable With Two Ungrounded Conductors And One Uninsulated Bare Conductor That Feeds A 3 Wire Range.

This is not a type SE-R cable. The "R" means four conductor
 

Towzzer

Member
3 Wire insulted

3 Wire insulted

I was under the impression that ranges and dryers used a 3 conductor insulated nm cable not like the say 10-2 or 6-2 nm
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Last year, I did a generator-and-ATS install where it would have been impossible to replace the 3-wire SE dryer and range cables. They ran in the slab of the breezeway between the garage and house.

The inspector allowed me to wrap the bare condutors with white tape and reattach it to the newly-unbonded neutral bus. I installed a separate ground bus on the original panel with a pair of 8-32's for the EGC's.
 

NICK D

Member
Location
MINNESOTA
LarryFine said:
Last year, I did a generator-and-ATS install where it would have been impossible to replace the 3-wire SE dryer and range cables. They ran in the slab of the breezeway between the garage and house.

The inspector allowed me to wrap the bare condutors with white tape and reattach it to the newly-unbonded neutral bus. I installed a separate ground bus on the original panel with a pair of 8-32's for the EGC's.

SO DO YOU THINK THAT IT IS SAFER TO TAPE AND TERMINATE ON THE NEUTRAL BAR RATHER THAN THE GROUND BAR? YOU NOW NO LONGER HAVE THE POSSIBILITY OF CURRENT CONNECTING TO NON CURRENT CARRING METAL PARTS. BUT WHAT ABOUT YOUR EFFECTIVE GROUND FAULT CURRENT PATH? MAYBE IM MAKING NO SENCE I HAD JUST FINISHED 16 HRS OF CONT ED CLASES.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
The neutral conductor provides the ground-fault path, and is safer.

Using all caps is hard to read and traditionally means shouting.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
NICK D said:
What Type Of Cable Is It Then? How Do You No R Means 4?


It would be an SEU cable which has 3 conductors:

seu-cable.gif



SER cable which has 4 conductors:

ser60.jpg
 
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