Outlets wired in parallel

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peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
iwire said:
Pete I agree with sparky_magoo, the electronics in a GFCI do not sense a ground fault.

I'm confused here. :? Current in must equal current out. That much I know.

If the current "returning" on the "neutral" or other ungrounded conductor is not equal, obviously it's leaking out somewhere. That could be through a person's body to a grounded surface, or to the ground itself, or to a grounded conductor, or through a water pipe.....etc etc. Are some of these situations not "ground faults?"

I agree that the GFCI doesn't have the "brains" to know that it's a ground fault. All it knows is that there's an imbalance. But it's still operating on a ground fault situation.
 

ramdiesel3500

Senior Member
Location
Bloomington IN
In my opinion, if current returns to the source by any other path than the intended grounded or phase conductor, then it can be considered a ground fault. I did make a mistake once when installing a residential wiring system where I inadvertantly created parallel neutral paths on a circuit. One of the paths was routed through a GFCI receptacle. As a result, part of the current from that GFCI was bypassing the receptacle on its return to the panel and caused a constant tripping condition. I still wanted to call it a ground fault since part of the current was taking an unintended path. Just my 2 cents.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
peter d said:
But it's still operating on a ground fault situation.

Pete, Ramdiesel, what happens if you cross neutrals on the line side of a GFCI?

It trips and that is not a 'ground fault'.

It really matters little what we call it but IMO it is not technically correct to say a GFCI is a ground fault detector.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
ramdiesel3500 said:
I inadvertantly created parallel neutral paths on a circuit. One of the paths was routed through a GFCI receptacle. As a result, part of the current from that GFCI was bypassing the receptacle on its return to the panel and caused a constant tripping condition. I still wanted to call it a ground fault since part of the current was taking an unintended path. Just my 2 cents.

You can certainly call that a ground fault if you like but IMO that is not really a ground fault.

All the current in your example flowed on circuit conductors not grounding conductors.

Not that it really matters in the least whatever you call it the GFCI still trips. 8)
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
iwire said:
It really matters little what we call it but IMO it is not technically correct to say a GFCI is a ground fault detector.

I agree. I haven't really disagreed all along actually. :) I'm just saying that a ground fault is ONE of the conditions that will trip a GFCI.
 

ramdiesel3500

Senior Member
Location
Bloomington IN
Bob
I may show my ingorance here, but what does it mean to "cross neutrals" on the line side of a GFCI? Are you referring to the idea of bypassing the GFCI with neutral current?
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
iwire said:
Pete, Ramdiesel, what happens if you cross neutrals on the line side of a GFCI?

It trips and that is not a 'ground fault'.
I read this as meaning, if the line neutral was accidentally swapped with the load neutral at the GFCI.
 

ramdiesel3500

Senior Member
Location
Bloomington IN
AaaHaa! Thanks George!! Now I get it! Yep that sure would trip one inadvertently! Guess I've just been lucky that I haven't had that happen (yet). Now when I make that mistake, I'll be able to fix it without a lot of head scratching!!! :D
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
George's idea is a good one but is not what I meant.

I will be honest I was being lazy just saying 'crossing neutrals'.

What I was taking about is just using the wrong neutral on the load side of the GFCI.

Say the load side wiring of a GFCI enters a j-box with other circuits and you mistakingly use the wrong neutral with the GFCI hot this will resale in a trip.

Bob
 

ramdiesel3500

Senior Member
Location
Bloomington IN
Yep! Thats exactly what I did to cause the tripping condition I described earlier. Its an easy mistake to make when you are in a hurry to get done. I am becomming convinced also that this is not really a ground fault condition. Guess I will just call it a...uhhhhh....mistake! :? :D
 

aftershock

Senior Member
Location
Memphis, TN
I once did an addition where an original receptacle would end up on a new GFCI circuit. Until such time the new circuit was energized, I left the original receptacle connceted to the original circuit in order to still have power to operate tools and such during the construction. Upon trim out, another crew finished up.
Well :oops: , a new recptacle was installed in this location and not only was the new crcuit attached, but the original circuit was also attached. Both hots happened to fall on the same phase of the service.
Can you guess what happened? :roll:
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
"Mis-tie" is the word I would use.

I would reserve "ground-fault" and "short-circuit" for the real conditions, for good practice and staying accurate when teaching others, IMO. "Mis-tie" works for me... :)
 
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