Switch to disconnect my dishwasher and range?

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benaround

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
Trevor,

I think the difference in 422.31(B) is the type of lock that has to be used,

the 2$ set screw type is not an acceptable means to serve as a safe method

of locking the device in the off position. [ 2005 NEC Handbook]. The device

must have provisions for placement of a 'lock' on it to secure it in the off position

The lock out device must be part of the disconnect assembly and must remain in place after the padlock is removed.

Again 2005 nech
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
infinity said:
Why? 422.31(B) specifically says that if the appliance has a motor over 1/8 hp then a breaker lock can be used.

Yes that section tells us a breaker lock may be used.

Than right after that 422.32 tells us if we choose to use a breaker lock on a motor appliance over 1/8 HP it will have to be in sight. (or meet the exception)

This is typical code layout.

Other examples.

225.31 requires a disconect

225.32 tells us where it can be.

240.20 requires OCP

240.21 Tells us where.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
What is a motor driven appliance? I can't find it defined by the NEC.

XL-3C374.JPG


This IMO is a motor driven appliance. Although a dishwasher has a motor they don't seem to be the same thing. If they are the same then why do we need 422.31(B) when we have the more restrictive 422.32?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
infinity said:
What is a motor driven appliance? I can't find it defined by the NEC.

I figured someone would ask, I don't really know.

IMO if the appliance can not do it's job without the motor it is a motor driven appliance.

This IMO is a motor driven appliance.

I agree, along with a sewing machine, and a dishwasher.


Although a dishwasher has a motor they don't seem to be the same thing. If they are the same then why do we need 422.31(B) when we have the more restrictive 422.32?

Trevor IMO they are different requirements, not the same requirement twice.

First we get permission to use a breaker as the disconnecting means. This has nothing to do with the location of the breaker.

Second we are told if we do use the breaker on certain appliances it must be in sight.

Just read the first few words of 422.32

If a switch or circuit breaker serves as the disconnecting means....
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
77401 said:
We put a plug under the sink for every Dishwasher & disposal.
last 2 kitchen remodels I did the Disposals & DW's both came with attachment cords already installed.
First time I saw this on a DW.
For a retro fit , you can pull the NM feed thru to under the cabinet & install a plug in a handy box.
No need for a wall switch on the back splash or breaker lockouts, etc.
How free king simple can this be?

I can snap a breaker lock onto a breaker faster than you can walk to your truck to get that handy box and receptacle.Lot cheaper too.Its never failed inspection yet.$2 and 10 seconds (gotta open the bag)
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Jim W in Tampa said:
Its never failed inspection yet.

And that is why it will take awhile before many of us can accept what the requirement actually says. :)

'We been doing it this way for years'
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
First we get permission to use a breaker as the disconnecting means. This has nothing to do with the location of the breaker.

Second we are told if we do use the breaker on certain appliances it must be in sight.

Just read the first few words of 422.32

If we get to 422.32 we don't need 422.31(B). If my appliance has a 1/3 hp motor you're saying we need to apply the more restrictive 422.32 even though it still fits into the wording of 422.31(B) which would allow a breaker lock. A dishwasher fits into 422.31(B), since it is as the title of the Article states a "Permanently Connected Appliance" with a motor over 1/8 HP.


The real question is what's the difference between a permanently connected appliance and a motor driven appliance?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
infinity said:
If we get to 422.32 we don't need 422.31(B). If my appliance has a 1/3 hp motor you're saying we need to apply the more restrictive 422.32 even though it still fits into the wording of 422.31(B) which would allow a breaker lock. A dishwasher fits into 422.31(B), since it is as the title of the Article states a "Permanently Connected Appliance" with a motor over 1/8 HP.


The real question is what's the difference between a permanently connected appliance and a motor driven appliance?

Trevor your thinking way to hard on this one it is straight froward and easy.

First its permission to use the breaker with a lock, than its location if the appliance happens to have a motor.


The long and short of it is that the NEC requires all but the smallest motors (less than 1/8 HP) to have a disconnecting means in sight unless the unit switch meets the requirements.

Please read the sections using Charlie's rules and forget how we have been doing it and passing.

Let me ask this.

Going with your interpretation when would 422.32 ever be needed?

What is the purpose of 422.32 if we can ignore it?
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
iwire said:
Yes that section tells us a breaker lock may be used.

Than right after that 422.32 tells us if we choose to use a breaker lock on a motor appliance over 1/8 HP it will have to be in sight. (or meet the exception)

This is typical code layout.

Other examples.

225.31 requires a disconect

225.32 tells us where it can be.

240.20 requires OCP

240.21 Tells us where.

Why if its in sight would you need a lock ? And read thru the exceptions and i think most will fall into it.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
I get the impression that most of the confusion about section 422.31(B) is coming from the title,

Notice that the title is:
(B) Appliances Rated Over 300 Volt-Amperes or 1/8 Horsepower.

As I read down through this section I can not find where a motor is involved with this appliance. The only reference to a motor I can find is the RATING of the appliance in Horse Power but I can’t find anything that states MOTOR.
Example; I have a piece of equipment that pulls 28 amps @ 240 volts single phase.
Table 430.248 tells me that this piece of equipment is rated at 5 HP.

The motor is directly addressed in 422.33 as Bob has pointed out.

Edited to add;
You go Bob
 
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infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
iwire said:
Let me ask this.

Going with your interpretation when would 422.32 ever be needed?

What is the purpose of 422.32 if we can ignore it?


The difference that 422.32 is for a motor driven appliance which is not the same as an appliance with a motor outlined in 422.31(B). Since the NEC does not provide a definition as to what the difference between a motor driven appliance is, and what a permanently connected appliance is, this thread is about someones opinion. Your opinion is that 422.32 applies to a dishwasher. My opinion and the one expressed by the AHJ in the State of NJ is that 422.31(B) applies to a dishwasher and a breaker lock is permitted. We use them all of the time without fail. If all appliances with a larger than 1/8 hp motor fall under 422.32 than why are the words "Appliances Rated Over 300 Volt-Amperes or 1/8 Horsepower" in the title of article 422.31?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
infinity said:
The difference that 422.32 is for a motor driven appliance which is not the same as an appliance with a motor outlined in 422.31(B).

It's not?

Can you show anything that backs that up?


Since the NEC does not provide a definition as to what the difference between a motor driven appliance is, and what a permanently connected appliance is, this thread is about someones opinion.

I don't really agree, all posts here are in fact opinion.

However IMO a motor driven appliance can be either a cord a nd plug or permanently connected appliance.


Your opinion is that 422.32 applies to a dishwasher.

There is no reason to believe otherwise.

A DW is an appliance

A DW is driven by a motor.

My opinion and the one expressed by the AHJ in the State of NJ is that 422.31(B) applies to a dishwasher and a breaker lock is permitted.

Which is fine if the DW has a NEC compliant unit switch. (You don't see how this little tidbit may be forgotten about over time?)

We use them all of the time without fail.

And you know as well as I do that means nothing as far as what the NEC actually requires and how it is enforced.

If all appliances with a larger than 1/8 hp motor fall under 422.32 than why are the words "Appliances Rated Over 300 Volt-Amperes or 1/8 Horsepower" in the title of article 422.31?

Because 422.31 gives permission to use a breaker lock with both Appliances Rated Over 300 Volt-Amperes or 1/8 Horsepower.

It does not indicate at all the location of that breaker so far it would be the installers choice.

However than 422.32 comes along and tells us specifically if we do use the breaker for a motor appliance it will have to be in sight.

I can't find another way to say, the sections say it clearly on their own.

Your argument seems to be based solely on the 'We have always done it that way' exception while I believe my argument is based on the words in the NEC.
 
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